Comments on: All that you suffer is all that you are http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/ An American Expatriate - Stepping Up From Down Under Wed, 07 Jan 2009 21:36:03 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Chris http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/#comment-4515 Chris Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:17:06 +0000 http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/#comment-4515 If someone wants to be 'pro-animal' there are many more effective things that you can do besides threaten and intimidate people who do animal research. People who really want to reduce the amount of animals that suffer needlessly or mindlessly can do othere important things. Cows are overproduced, fattened quickly on food they cannot digest requiring a host of medicine to keep them healthy enough for slaughter so that we can have cheap beef seven days a week. Chickens are treated likewise, oceans are overfished, corporate farming is helping to create rapidly growing dead zones in the ocean because of runoff of nitrogen and phosphorus from massive amounts of fertilizer. Female dogs are permanently caged, never let out only to reproduce over and over again so that people can have cheap, designer dogs that are probably going to suffer later from expensive diseases and disorders because of overbreeding. If you want to really do something to help animals, reduce how frequently you eat meat or buy more cage-free eggs and humanly raised and butchered meat. Yes, it's more expensive but when you support the farmers who work ethically, the prices on these items will come down. Get your dogs from a shelter or a reputable breeder. When you buy your animals at the mall, you are contributing to the needless mistreatment of animals. I have a respect for animals that doesn't preclude their sacrifice for my betterment. Producing drugs that can help my family stay healthy forwards that, having a BigMac for $3 every day doesn't. Chriss last blog post..<a href="http://formerlyfun.blogspot.com/2008/08/viva-las-vegas.html" rel="nofollow">Viva Las Vegas</a> If someone wants to be ‘pro-animal’ there are many more effective things that you can do besides threaten and intimidate people who do animal research. People who really want to reduce the amount of animals that suffer needlessly or mindlessly can do othere important things.

Cows are overproduced, fattened quickly on food they cannot digest requiring a host of medicine to keep them healthy enough for slaughter so that we can have cheap beef seven days a week. Chickens are treated likewise, oceans are overfished, corporate farming is helping to create rapidly growing dead zones in the ocean because of runoff of nitrogen and phosphorus from massive amounts of fertilizer.

Female dogs are permanently caged, never let out only to reproduce over and over again so that people can have cheap, designer dogs that are probably going to suffer later from expensive diseases and disorders because of overbreeding.

If you want to really do something to help animals, reduce how frequently you eat meat or buy more cage-free eggs and humanly raised and butchered meat. Yes, it’s more expensive but when you support the farmers who work ethically, the prices on these items will come down. Get your dogs from a shelter or a reputable breeder. When you buy your animals at the mall, you are contributing to the needless mistreatment of animals.

I have a respect for animals that doesn’t preclude their sacrifice for my betterment. Producing drugs that can help my family stay healthy forwards that, having a BigMac for $3 every day doesn’t.

Chriss last blog post..Viva Las Vegas

]]> By: A Free Man http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/#comment-4514 A Free Man Mon, 25 Aug 2008 10:12:15 +0000 http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/#comment-4514 SSG, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos. BAM! I've always wanted to use that quote and you totally set it up for me. Well done! Ariza - can't be assed sometimes to make sure I'm logged in as A Free Man rather than admin. More laziness than coyness. I agree about the dirty work folks. My work is pretty clean, all things considered. JK - I think mice are kind of cute, but point taken. April - I know that you're on the front lines on this one and that can be a truly unpleasant place, particularly in your part of the world. I mean, I'm as much of a leftie as the next guy, but there's left and then there's whacko! Gypsy - I think you are probably correct, but I don't think I could write about their angriness. Vera - well said, I just listened to a radio program about the Black Death in which half the world's population died in a decade. It's modern medicine, supported by animal testing that prevents that from happening today. SSG, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it’s an ethos.

BAM! I’ve always wanted to use that quote and you totally set it up for me. Well done!

Ariza - can’t be assed sometimes to make sure I’m logged in as A Free Man rather than admin. More laziness than coyness. I agree about the dirty work folks. My work is pretty clean, all things considered.

JK - I think mice are kind of cute, but point taken.

April - I know that you’re on the front lines on this one and that can be a truly unpleasant place, particularly in your part of the world. I mean, I’m as much of a leftie as the next guy, but there’s left and then there’s whacko!

Gypsy - I think you are probably correct, but I don’t think I could write about their angriness.

Vera - well said, I just listened to a radio program about the Black Death in which half the world’s population died in a decade. It’s modern medicine, supported by animal testing that prevents that from happening today.

]]> By: sarala http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/#comment-4484 sarala Sat, 23 Aug 2008 04:56:19 +0000 http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/#comment-4484 Well said. It has been years now but I've done some of the animal research stuff and agree that it is worth it to save lives but it still pained me to see any creature suffer. I don't even like to step on bugs (mosquitoes are the one exception). I'm glad I don't have to walk that line anymore. saralas last blog post..<a href="http://sharala.blogspot.com/2008/08/so-many-stories.html" rel="nofollow">So Many Stories. . . .</a> Well said. It has been years now but I’ve done some of the animal research stuff and agree that it is worth it to save lives but it still pained me to see any creature suffer. I don’t even like to step on bugs (mosquitoes are the one exception). I’m glad I don’t have to walk that line anymore.

saralas last blog post..So Many Stories. . . .

]]> By: SSG http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/#comment-4473 SSG Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:03:29 +0000 http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/#comment-4473 and oi spelling national socialist, it 'a' not 'an' rectal prolapse, geddit rite weel ya? and oi spelling national socialist, it ‘a’ not ‘an’ rectal prolapse, geddit rite weel ya?

]]> By: Vera http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/#comment-4466 Vera Thu, 21 Aug 2008 23:03:27 +0000 http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/#comment-4466 When I was in college I worked for a few months for an academic researcher who studied neurochemistry of depression in mice. He used to speak of "pharmaceutical doses" as the opposite of doses he used. In his research, he used the smallest possible amount of any drug that would elicit a change in behavior. Pharmaceutical doses, on the other hand, were used to document extremes (e.g., LD50, the dose which kills 50% of the animals, is an extremely important piece of info). I have also worked in a monkey neurophysiology lab, and can vouch that the head of that lab loved his monkeys and treated them extremely well. In my experience, academics are well aware of the importance of animals and do not mistreat them. And they certainly won't kill them lightly, animals are really expensive! It seems to me academics and pharma work on different parts of the curve (s-shaped curve that describes change in a symptom at different drug doses). I doubt anyone is willing to live in a knowledge-curtailed world that would result if animal testing wasn't being done, and I am guessing that the differences between us comes from the different trade-offs (how much harm to animals for how much benefit to humans) that are acceptable to us. When I was in college I worked for a few months for an academic researcher who studied neurochemistry of depression in mice. He used to speak of “pharmaceutical doses” as the opposite of doses he used. In his research, he used the smallest possible amount of any drug that would elicit a change in behavior. Pharmaceutical doses, on the other hand, were used to document extremes (e.g., LD50, the dose which kills 50% of the animals, is an extremely important piece of info). I have also worked in a monkey neurophysiology lab, and can vouch that the head of that lab loved his monkeys and treated them extremely well. In my experience, academics are well aware of the importance of animals and do not mistreat them. And they certainly won’t kill them lightly, animals are really expensive! It seems to me academics and pharma work on different parts of the curve (s-shaped curve that describes change in a symptom at different drug doses). I doubt anyone is willing to live in a knowledge-curtailed world that would result if animal testing wasn’t being done, and I am guessing that the differences between us comes from the different trade-offs (how much harm to animals for how much benefit to humans) that are acceptable to us.

]]> By: Gypsy http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/#comment-4463 Gypsy Thu, 21 Aug 2008 19:04:36 +0000 http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/#comment-4463 "The ethics people get very angry if the mice suffer." Pah!! I bet the mice are more angry. Useful, lifesaving, but angry. Gypsys last blog post..<a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/Strangedarkgypsygirl/~3/371173484/" rel="nofollow">Outing myself</a> “The ethics people get very angry if the mice suffer.” Pah!! I bet the mice are more angry. Useful, lifesaving, but angry.

Gypsys last blog post..Outing myself

]]> By: April http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/#comment-4461 April Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:55:53 +0000 http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/#comment-4461 This is a hot button issue around here as of late. A bunch of animal-activists have be terrorizing faculty in the system, breaking into their homes (while people are there), fire bombing their houses and cars. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/05/BARB124V21.DTL&hw=faculty+fire+bomb&sn=002&sc=648 I can't find the exact quote now, but there was an article in which a spokesman for the Animal Liberation Front said it was "Unfortunate that these researchers continue to endanger the lives of their families by continuing to torture animals." Or some such non-sense. You can't argue with these "activists" because their logic is so fundamentally flawed that they can't see reason. They continually compare animal research to slavery, my mind just can't make that connection. Also, they forget that if it weren't for being involved in research projects, these animals would never exist in the first place. They keep saying how the animals would rather be running around free, and I'm sure they would, but they wouldn't have even been born if not for these projects. And the life of a wild mouse isn't so idyllic as they'd like to think. There are extraordinary measures put into place to make sure research animals do not suffer unnecessarily. This is a hot button issue around here as of late. A bunch of animal-activists have be terrorizing faculty in the system, breaking into their homes (while people are there), fire bombing their houses and cars.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/05/BARB124V21.DTL&hw=faculty+fire+bomb&sn=002&sc=648
I can’t find the exact quote now, but there was an article in which a spokesman for the Animal Liberation Front said it was “Unfortunate that these researchers continue to endanger the lives of their families by continuing to torture animals.” Or some such non-sense. You can’t argue with these “activists” because their logic is so fundamentally flawed that they can’t see reason. They continually compare animal research to slavery, my mind just can’t make that connection. Also, they forget that if it weren’t for being involved in research projects, these animals would never exist in the first place. They keep saying how the animals would rather be running around free, and I’m sure they would, but they wouldn’t have even been born if not for these projects. And the life of a wild mouse isn’t so idyllic as they’d like to think. There are extraordinary measures put into place to make sure research animals do not suffer unnecessarily.

]]> By: Jessica K http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/#comment-4458 Jessica K Thu, 21 Aug 2008 13:10:15 +0000 http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/#comment-4458 Hahaha, that cartoon made me giggle, and I haven't even finished my first cup of coffee. Nothing makes me giggle pre-coffee. Anyway, I can see how it would be hard to disconnect from the reality of suffering animals, but on the other hand... We get a mouse in our house every winter, and I have never once felt guilty about setting traps or calling the exterminator on the little boogers. Mice are mice. They're yucky disease carrying rodents, and I'm okay with sacrificing a few in the name of science. :) Hahaha, that cartoon made me giggle, and I haven’t even finished my first cup of coffee. Nothing makes me giggle pre-coffee.
Anyway, I can see how it would be hard to disconnect from the reality of suffering animals, but on the other hand… We get a mouse in our house every winter, and I have never once felt guilty about setting traps or calling the exterminator on the little boogers. Mice are mice. They’re yucky disease carrying rodents, and I’m okay with sacrificing a few in the name of science. :)

]]> By: arizaphale http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/#comment-4457 arizaphale Thu, 21 Aug 2008 12:50:14 +0000 http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/#comment-4457 You're 'admin' now? Very coy. Anyway, what you said. Totally. And all credit to those who have the courage to do the dirty work so that the rest of us can get our (therapeutic) drugs. But sorry Angel, I don't feel bad killing insects, perhaps because we have so many killer ones over here, and after having lived through a mouse plague I really don't mind too much what they do to them either...... arizaphales last blog post..<a href="http://arizaphale.blogspot.com/2008/08/just-excitable-girl.html" rel="nofollow">Just An Excitable Girl*</a> You’re ‘admin’ now? Very coy.

Anyway, what you said. Totally. And all credit to those who have the courage to do the dirty work so that the rest of us can get our (therapeutic) drugs.

But sorry Angel, I don’t feel bad killing insects, perhaps because we have so many killer ones over here, and after having lived through a mouse plague I really don’t mind too much what they do to them either……

arizaphales last blog post..Just An Excitable Girl*

]]> By: admin http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/#comment-4454 admin Thu, 21 Aug 2008 11:53:12 +0000 http://www.afreeman.org/2008/08/21/all-that-you-suffer-is-all-that-you-are/#comment-4454 SSG - you need to post something! Angel - we're on the same side on this one. You know that, right? SSG - you need to post something!

Angel - we’re on the same side on this one. You know that, right?

]]>