Debating Dads
My Dad and I don’t agree on much politically. I’m a hard core socialist and my Dad, as a libertarian, is about as far away from me politically as you can get without coming back the other way. But despite being wrong on most things, he thinks things through thoroughly and is always civil in his opinions, unlike your underwhelming correspondent. My Dad sent me an e-mail today asking my opinion about Sarah Palin after the debate. I don’t think that he’ll mind that in the spirit of guest posts that I’ve been into here on A Free Man, I thought I would publish his mail and my response. First, my Dad’s thoughts in italics:
Looking for your unbiased and honest opinion if you saw any of the VP debate. Since I don’t have a dog in the fight and can’t vote anyway*, I can be objective. I am objective to the point that I dislike both McCain and Obama, so I’m happy I can’t vote - I’d have to go with none of the above on the ballot.
The media has been ripping Palin so much, I thought I would take the time to see her in action. I don’t quite understand why the media beats her up for inexperience but gives Obama a pass, but I guess that is their agenda.
So anyway, I watched the first part of the debate, and she won me over quickly. Down to earth, folksy and positive responses to the questions. Biden, on the other hand, like all lifetime “experienced” politicians, sidesteps the question and goes into ripping the competition. This is what I am used to - Democrat or Republican, doesn’t matter. Palin did not go too far down that road. I would like to think that she could set a trend for the future, but that is probably too much to hope for. And probably if she hangs around, she’ll end up like them.But it was a nice few minutes.
So anyway, I thought, well maybe it was just me. So at tennis today I dared to bring up politics - not usually a good mix,. Most of my comrades are Obama guys so I expected to hear pretty negative things. But amazingly, they to a man, were very much impressed by her and how she handled herself.
So, if you got a chance to see it, what did you think?
Well Dad, since you read my blog I suspect that you already know that my opinion of Sarah Palin is not a very good one. I did watch the debate, which was shown nearly live on Australian Broadcasting Corporation TV, the PBS equivalent. First of all, I think Joe Biden was fantastic in the last hour and that is unfortunately getting lost in the chattering about Palin. He was smart, quick witted and importantly acted as the terrier that I had hoped he would. He went after Palin a couple of times on absolute falsehoods spouted by her and the McCain campaign. In his finest moment, he challenged the whole Maverick® label that Palin and McCain have draped themselves in. After the sixth time she said “maverick” Biden, clearly peeved, went on a sharp riff, challenging the Republican candidates’ maverickness.
As for Palin, she definitely exceeded expectations and in her defense, presented herself much better than she had of late in interviews. I’ll admit that I, like a lot of other people, watched in part to see the Palin Express completely come off the rails. But she formed complete sentences, had some coherent thoughts and above all, and as you pointed out, Dad, was thoroughly charming. She didn’t convince me that she knows what she’s talking about, particularly, because she flat-out refused to address the questions posed and stuck to her talking points.
But this is my problem with Sarah Palin: she’s all charm. As you say yourself, she’s down to earth and folksy. A lot of people perceive a connection with her. She’s someone a lot of people would probably like to have a beer with. That’s great, but I don’t want to have a beer with my president, or vice-president. I don’t want my president to be someone I can relate to. I don’t want my president to be just like me. I want my president to be much smarter than me, I want my president to be much more competent than me, I want my president to be much better than me. I don’t think I could run the United States and I don’t think Sarah Palin could run the United States. We’ve had eight years of being led by a “regular guy”, a “folksy” speaker, a guy that people wanted to have a beer with. Dad, are we better off than we were eight years ago? I don’t think I could run the United States and I don’t think Sarah Palin could run the United States.
That’s my objective opinion. What do you guys think? Let’s hear your (civilized) opinions about Sarah Palin post-debate.
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* My Dad retains his Canadian citizenship despite living in the U.S. for over thirty years. Smart guy.
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The John Butler Trio’s “Sunrise Over Sea” is available from 
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Popularity: 65% [?]
Hitler had folksy charm, too. I’m serious. That’s how he was able to do what he did.
Ask your neighbours about a certain Australian politician called Joh Bjelke-Petersen. He was so blatant about not answering questions that he coined a catch-phrase; “Now don’t you worry about that…”
It went something like this…
“So, Mr Bjelke-Petersen, would you care to comment on the corruption charges you’re facing in court?”
“Now don’t you worry about that. The filthy socialists in Canberra, that’s what you should be asking about…”
Like Palin, he had a conservative base in the heartland who admired his “folksy” ways, while he practiced her brand of vindictive power broking. Of course, the corruption extended to an outrageous electoral jerrymander, whilch also helped him stay in power.
Conservative politicians–they’re all the same.
04 Oct 2008 at 9:20 pm
I thought Palin far exceeded expectations, but it was clear to me that she was just reciting the talking points that were fed to her in her debate preparation. I may be biased as a Biden fan, but I thought that he sidestepped questions a lot less than Palin did and when Biden did talk about something else, part of his answer usually was related to the question. I wish that Biden was a little more aggressive at the beginning, but I’m sure he was trying to make sure that he didn’t come across as a sexist bully (because I’d be really comfortable with a woman in office that complains about being slighted by Putin or Ahmadinejad). I think I saw a little too much of Biden’s toothy grin in the beginning when Palin was on the attack.
In terms of the lack of experience for both Palin and Obama, its clear that their political resumes are exceedingly thin compared to McCain or Biden. There are two things that make me more comfortable with Obama though. First, he doesn’t seem to make more of his experience than it is. On the other hand, Palin constantly refers to her “executive” experience of the nation’s largest state. Who cares if it has the most land mass? Its got to be one of the smallest in terms of population, and thats what counts. Secondly, Obama is clearly the more educated candidate here. A degree from Columbia and a law degree from Harvard for Obama, versus Palin who spent time hopping from one undistinguished college to another, all to get a communications degree. Seems like Obama wins that one.
04 Oct 2008 at 10:13 pm
Headbang - Hitler comparisons aren’t civilized! Don’t you get arrested in Germany for that?
Jason - Well said. Biden’s grin WAS weird, but then he got mad and did what he needed to do.
04 Oct 2008 at 10:23 pm
Dare I comment here? Hmm, I guess I’ll take my chances and just not come back to see what other people say about me.
While I was not overly impressed with Palin (I agree that she relied too much on her charm and not enough on facts), I was not impressed by Biden either. At the end of the night, I thought he did a better job at the debate. Until the next morning when we heard an independent analyst going over their facts. It turns out that Biden downright lied fourteen times, four of which were in the Maverick tirade. Then he had a number of what they called “mistakes and misrepresentations.” Palin only had four “misrepresentations”. Still too many, but not quite so bad. The thing is, after wasting part of my night watching that, I came away with no more clear an opinion of either person and a head full of BS.
I’m with your dad. They should totally put a none of the above bubble on the ballot this year.
Jessica Ks last blog post..New Skills
04 Oct 2008 at 11:06 pm
Outsider alert.
I can’t put my finger on why, but I kind of admire Palin.
She’s been shafted, pulled out of nowhere in the hope she can boost this man on the street image the Republicans are trying to promote.
She does it well, but I believe she is only preaching to the converted, she will solidify the existing republican support, but it will be a warm day in Alaska before she wins new support.
You got it right with the ‘charm’, and you can add drive and determination, even intelligence to the mix, but there is something missing.
She’d win ‘the apprentice’ hands down.
The comments they both made on gay couples (was it not allowed to say homosexual?) were awkward on both sides, Palin sounded like she was selling her soul saying she was ‘tolerant’, and hammered home the no marriage point. Biden was harder to read but seemed like someone who wasn’t really saying what he really believed when he said the same.
I don’t know which was the worse of the two angles to approach giving what I thought was a pre-agreed, conceeded, almost united, and in my view, a bad message.
As an outsider this is truly fascinating to follow. If I had a vote, before Thursday I would have been 99% certain where it was going, after Thursday I would have been tempted to spoil it.
Having this kind of conversation with your father is so hard for me to fathom, you are lucky guys. Well done.
Xbox4NappyRashs last blog post..While you were sleeping
04 Oct 2008 at 11:08 pm
Palin didn’t implode, but she also didn’t really impress me. It seemed to me that she was answering the questions that she’d been prepped to answer rather than the questions that were actually asked. As for the charm and the folksiness, I find it very off-putting. Like she’s a used car salesman. Or a beauty pageant contestant.
Nicholes last blog post..Technical difficulties
04 Oct 2008 at 11:20 pm
Sarah Palin reminds me of someone else who dipped their toes into Presidential politics, someone with folksy charm, someone who related with the “regular” voters, and someone who didn’t have a whole lot of experience going into this whole President thing - Bill Clinton. Remember? Young, vibrant, saxophone-playing, slightly southern/Arkansas accent, and a governor of Arkansas with no foreign policy experience. I don’t quite remember the same ripping up of Clinton as compared to Palin. Of course, that was 1992 and I was in college and not quite as in tune to what’s going on in the political world as I am now (fracking adulthood).
According to the US Constitution, the only requirements necessary to be President (and, therefore, Vice President) is to be 35 years old, be a natural-born American citizen, and not have already served as President for two terms. That leaves MANY people (including McCain, Obama, Palin, and Biden) qualified to be President and if you want experience, then there are only two people on this planet truly qualified to be President: Jimmy Carter and George H. W. Bush.
I think she did just fine, although she did side-step some questions, as did Biden. I stick by my post of a couple of weeks ago when I say that too much stock is given to the President. It’s all about Congress.
Whew. Stepping down off my soap box now.
Coal Miner’s Granddaughters last blog post..Silent Saturday 14: Path
04 Oct 2008 at 11:33 pm
I am shocked by so many people who think that Palin answered all the questions. She most certainly did not. Yes, Biden side-stepped. Palin? Didn’t anyone pa attention when she basically told the audience that she wasn’t going to answer that specific question (sorry, I can’t remember exactly what it was) and then talked about energy. It was so frustrating!!!
She did find her stride towards the end of the debate–thank god. I felt stressed watching her in the beginning because she looked so tight. I don’t blame her, but it was a bit painful to watch.
All in all, both sides spun their answers (when they answered) the way that most favored their party. That was not a surprise. She is playing politics just like the rest of them.
My two biggest issue coming out of the debate are this:
1. Stop with the whole bogus “I’m just like you” routine. She has more than a million dollars in assets. She isn’t just like me or my neighbors. Does she really believe that is representative of the “average” middle class family?
2. The “folksy” talk. First of all, she isn’t from the “Heartland” of America, she’s from Alaska. That accent? My family are all from MN and I know what that “Heartland” accent should sound like. Be yourself and not lay on that accent because you think it will endear you to people. The idea of her sitting down with the British Prime Minister or other heads of State speaking like that makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck.
NATUIs last blog post..A Taste of Freedom
05 Oct 2008 at 12:22 am
Ms. Palin is a vapid, empty shell who clearly possesses more ambition than intelligence. Her forced, overcoached performance, alongside the winking and cartoonish reliance on folksy talk, did little to mask the arrogance and mean spiritedness that lies at her core.
That this singularly unqualified talking head is being promoted as having anything remotely resembling the skills to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency should arouse an unprecedently deep rage on the part of any thinking American of voting age.
It’s just plain outrageous, no matter how the nervous Republican spin machine pitches it.
Rays last blog post..Crosseyed & Painless
05 Oct 2008 at 1:20 am
I have to give Palin credit for actually forming coherent sentences. I watched a couple of her past interviews and felt my brain cells burning up while trying to dumb myself down to her level of speak. I’m sorry if that’s offensive, but those interviews were absolute disasters. But, that’s where my “credit giving” ends for her.
If I never hear the word “Maverick” or the phrase “… energy producing state of Alaska” again, it’ll be too soon.
All in all, I fully agree with your post. A friend of mine (who is an avid republican - and may also be the same person who sampled my wife’s breastmilk) always credits the previous republican president when our economy improves under the current democratic president.
My hope is that Palin’s folksy, down to earthedness (is that even a word?) brings more attention to the election. I don’t mean to bring her more votes, but that it just gets people interested enough to pay attention to HOW IMPORTANT this vote is for our country.
Joes last blog post..Let’s do a shot!
05 Oct 2008 at 2:28 am
The bar for Palin was so low that it was pretty difficult to say that she wasn’t a “success”. Her responses reminded me of a Miss America pageant; Question, one-sentence transition, one minute of general talking points. I’m not saying Biden didn’t do that, but at least he acknowledged the question and kept the answer fairly close to topic.
The whole fake-scandal over the moderator really kept Palin from being called out over her vague-ness. Hooray for Fox News and the Drudge Report!
05 Oct 2008 at 2:37 am
Take the data below with a grain of salt, as I would have thought Biden won no matter what the polls said (you could see Palin flipping through her note cards looking for answers whenever they pulled back for a wide shot), but it is interesting to see that maybe Americans are realizing that folksy bullshit won’t stop your economy from collapsing…
Biden won / Palin won / undecided
CNN/Opinion Research 51 36
CBS 46 21
Fox 61 39
Survey USA 51 32 17
MediaCurves (indies) 67 33
Rasmussen 45 37
Note that even the wingnuts at Fox had Biden winning
05 Oct 2008 at 6:13 am
Jessica - We’re being civilized today, so there’s no need to cringe. However, I don’t buy the lie-o-meter that you cited. I don’t believe that there are any objective organizations left.
Xbox - The homosexuality thing was uncomfortable to watch, because you could tell she was reciting a rehearsed line. I wish she was questioned more about social issues, because I think she would lose libertarians like my Dad when she started talking about creationism, book banning and religion in general.
Nichole - the latter, definitely.
CMGD - There are very few requirements for someone to be a player in the NBA, but I’m pretty sure that the Celtics aren’t going to sign me any time soon. I don’t want experience, I want excellence. Say what you will about Sarah Palin, but I’m pretty sure that ‘excellence’ won’t be one of those things.
NATUI - well said. About ten minutes in she said, “And I may not answer the questions that either the moderator or you want to hear.” If she were being honest, this would have been followed by, I’m just going to read what it says on these little cards they gave me.
I think she sounds Canadian. Damn dirty Canadians.
Ray - I agree with you 100%, but am trying to be nice. It’s just an extension of the G.O.P. goal of completely disemboweling the federal government by filling it with incompetent people.
Joe - sounds like you friend is a real maverick. Is he a part of a team of mavericks or is he a lone maverick?
Nathan - You’re dead right about the moderator. I’m so annoyed that these guys keep getting away with this. I’m so tired with Republicans whining about the rules. Jesus.
Jamie - That is really reassuring, my countrymen aren’t complete suckers.\
05 Oct 2008 at 7:29 am
When Biden was having his emotional moment and she just ignored it I really wanted to scream at the TV. But I couldn’t, because my baby sleeps next to me and I want him to sleep well with the knowledge that most of the people in his country still think Sarah Palin is a moron, thank God.
She winked a lot and recited talking points, and she ignored Ifill’s questions and Biden’s answers, but Republicans are happy because she didn’t poop her pants. Really, the only reason she survived that night was that the format of the debate meant no follow up questions. It would have been a different story if Ifill was allowed to say, “That’s great that you can wink and read off your little cards, but can you answer the goddamn question?”
People in the Suns last blog post..Calling Henry Kissinger
05 Oct 2008 at 7:29 am
It is worth nothing that for the past few weeks (since the disastrous ‘Katie’ interview), Ms Palin has not given a single news conference (source: ABC Radio National). Methinks she has spent her time learning her debate script.
Oh, and Ray, don’t beat around the bush. What are you trying to say?
arizaphales last blog post..Who Let Her On The Microphone?
05 Oct 2008 at 1:57 pm
“Headbang - Hitler comparisons aren’t civilized! Don’t you get arrested in Germany for that?”
Comaprisons to Hitler are fine. Favourable comparisons are not.
http://www.javno.com/en/bestseller/clanak.php?id=88445
headbang8s last blog post..Bourgeoisie in the Key of E
05 Oct 2008 at 4:34 pm
I saw some of the debate although in oone respect the debate was of academic interest as I have no vote in teh US election. THat said we all bear the consequences.
It’s one thing to be able to connect with the electorate but I just don’t get how Palin’s folksy Know-nothing style manages to con swathes of the electorate. The idea of her in the White House fills me with dread (one heart attack away) . Mercifully the polls at this stage make that prospect look unlikely but there is a long way to go before the polls.
jams O’Donnells last blog post..Wise words from an Australian comedian
05 Oct 2008 at 6:15 pm
I will take Harvard-educated over folksy any day. Except in doctors. They simply need a better bed-side manner.
I’m a bit of a socialist myself–which is the reason I liked Hillary’s health care plan.
But more importantly, can’t a girl like Mick Jagger AND Jeff Tweedy? As for twang, Steve Earle is about as far as I go.
Megs last blog post..1-2-Skip A Few 100! Meg’s Blogoversary!!
05 Oct 2008 at 10:45 pm
BTW, just checked out Blitzen Trapper–I like it! And Aquarium Drunken?? What a great rip-off name.
Megs last blog post..1-2-Skip A Few 100! Meg’s Blogoversary!!
05 Oct 2008 at 10:54 pm
what is that phrase that george bush used to say–the soft bigotry of low expectations? well, could the bar have been set any lower for palin to rise above in order to call her debate a success? i don’t think so.
the good news now that the v.p. debate is over is that the focus will shift back to mccain and obama, and hopefully to the real issues at hand.
like, how come mccain supported the bailout bill when it had $140 billion in pork attached to it? i thought if there was one thing he was going to stand against it was pork-barrel earmarks?? not that i expect any politician to do everything he says he will all the time, but this is a “fundamental” part of his message. oh well! so much for principles, etc.
i feel hopeful about the election, i really do. i know we still have 30 days to go but i just don’t see how mccain can pull it out at this point.
have you read this article? it says what i feel about obama and the election so well:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20081003/cm_csm/ymartin
06 Oct 2008 at 5:46 am
what is that phrase that george bush used to say–the soft bigotry of low expectations? well, could the bar have been set any lower for palin to rise above in order to call her debate a success? i don’t think so.
the good news now that the v.p. debate is over is that the focus will shift back to mccain and obama, and hopefully to the real issues at hand.
like, how come mccain supported the bailout bill when it had $140 billion in pork attached to it? i thought if there was one thing he was going to stand against it was pork-barrel earmarks?? not that i expect any politician to do everything he says he will all the time, but this is a “fundamental” part of his message. oh well! so much for principles, etc.
i feel hopeful about the election, i really do. i know we still have 30 days to go but i just don’t see how mccain can pull it out at this point.
have you read this article? it says what i feel about obama and the election so well:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20081003/cm_csm/ymartin
mjrcs last blog post..You Can Keep Your Yellow Cars
06 Oct 2008 at 5:47 am
man, ure dad’s Canadian? Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
Also does it matter if Palin doesnt know about economics, socialism, how to run a government. She knows about Hockey, and isn’t that what’s important. I didnt watch the debate as I think something like the X factor was on telly. Or I was washing my hair. Some of my friends are asking why is the American election getting so much coverage abroad, and I think because whatever happens there is going to affect what happens in the world in a big way, cos that’s the nature of US politics. Sorry NZ, but if you had a presidential race, I don’t think I would even know.
A free man, would you really want to go for a beer with Palin? She would do my nut and in, and I would want to mess her hair up.
06 Oct 2008 at 5:42 pm
When Palin said she was going to talk about what she wanted regardless of what the moderator or Biden wanted I was shocked– hmmm, is this a debate or a speech on energy?
Florida Girl In Sydneys last blog post..Halloween Fun In Australia, Not So Much
06 Oct 2008 at 7:14 pm
My point of view is closely aligned with what Ray expressed above.
I think it was Fareed Zakaria who pointed out in a recent Washington Post op-ed that the problem with Sarah Palin is not so much her answers to questions — rather, it’s that she clearly doesn’t understand the questions in the first place.
I don’t believe she is capable of cogently answering a question on any consequential issue spontaneously. I don’t think she has a well-formed independent thought about anything outside the limited sphere from whence she came. I fear her understanding of many essential domains is painfully superficial, e.g., economics, constitutional law, international relations, history — critical thinking…
I shudder to think of her engaging in conversation — much less attempting serious negotiation — with just about any world leader. And with McCain already 72 years of age, and having had cancer more than once, that “heartbeat away” cliche seems more relevant than at any time in recent memory.
And finally, call me petty or pedantic, but I do want to mention (in case you missed it) that Palin said “Nu-cue-lar” several times during the so-called debate. (It wasn’t really a debate; it was a recitation.) Where have we heard “nu-cue-lar” before, hmmm?
Bobbie
The Right Blues last blog post..Fish Tales: Encounters with the Napoleon Wrasse
06 Oct 2008 at 7:25 pm
I think it would have been near impossible for Palin not to exceed expectations. The only way she could have done worse than the Couric interview would have been to punch Biden in the face, endorse terrorism, or vomit.
I actually thought Biden was near flawless too, especially in his “McCain’s not really a maverick” tirade. He could have corrected her on several occasions — the General McClellan thing (ha), “nu-cue-lar,” etc., etc. But he didn’t, and that’s why he didn’t come off as a bully, although he easily could have.
What worries me about Palin is not so much that she didn’t know how to answer the questions posed, but that she seems to NOT CARE that she didn’t know how to answer the questions posed. Anyone can learn about foreign policy or the economy, but in order to attain the expertise (theoretically) required of a vice president, you have to have a little genuine intellectual curiosity about those things. I don’t think she does, and that’s what scares me.
As for the folksy talk, is that the kind of straight talk we Americans crave? I think not. Answer the damn questions.
06 Oct 2008 at 11:52 pm
PIS - I heard Ifill on Meet the Press and got the feeling that she felt a little bit cowed by the b.s. that the Right threw up before the debate. Which is disappointing, because your question would have been a good one.
Ariza - And she shan’t give anymore until the election. Her job from now until Nov 4 is to spew vitriol to the base and help out congressional candidates.
Headbang - Good to know the difference, so you weren’t favorably comparing Palin to Hitler?
Jams - There used to be a Know Nothing party in the States.
Meg - Hillary definitely had the better health care plan. I backed Obama in the primaries largely because I found him a more compelling politician, a movement leader potentially. And damn the U.S. needs a movement!
MJRC - Yeah, the ear-mark slashing Maverick seemed to miss that 140 bil. Huh, what’s that mean about his maverickness?
SSG - I don’t want to go for anything anywhere with Sarah Palin. The accent alone would drive me nuts.
Courtney - I thought that George Bush was the worst kind of intellectually lazy. Then came Palin.
FGIS - I wasn’t shocked, just exasperated.
The Right Blue - I know, nucular, how much longer do we have to listen to people mispronounce a not very difficult to pronounce word.
07 Oct 2008 at 12:34 pm
I didn’t watch the debate … missed it because the Canadian leaders debate was going head-to-head. Is your dad going to vote in that one? The choices there are equally uninspiring!
08 Oct 2008 at 5:06 am
Chris - I don’t think Dad votes in Canada these days. I don’t know if he pays much attention to what’s going on up there.
08 Oct 2008 at 7:37 am
Ditto to what NATUI and Ray said. Palin just turns my stomach. Olympia Snowe (R. Senator from Maine) would have been a better choice for McCain. Hell, just about any woman in politics would have been a better choice for McCain. I know I’m late with my comment, but her actions over the past four days are disgusting. AAARGH!!!
P.S. Please don’t stop talking about politics on this blog!
Toastys last blog post..Random Acts of Cheapness
09 Oct 2008 at 12:45 am