This one may not go down well, considering the demographics of my readership.
As a general rule, I try to avoid getting sucked into comment stream dramas – mostly because I have better things to do with life. In most cases, I don’t even go back to a post after I’ve left a comment, just in case I’ve inadvertantly started something.
I should stick with that rule.
Dr. O’C is fully responsible for this one. Be forewarned – I’ve got no music no, cute pictures for this one – just a pretty heated rant. If you’re looking for shiny and happy on this Friday it may be best to move on…
A couple of days ago, I read a post on a friend’s blog. I don’t want to name the blog, I don’t want to suck her into this rant. She was writing about the tough time she was having finding a day care for her little girl. I’ve been there and was trying to make a friend feel better about a tough parental transition, so I said:
Day care is a necessary reality of modern life. I know it sucks to drop them off and I have moments of guilt as well, but it’s not the 1950’s anymore. In most cases both partners have to work in order to maintain a lifestyle that children are ultimately going to need. So don’t beat yourself up about the day care thing.
Another thing. (Boy Z) can put on quite a show when we drop him off sometimes – tears and clinging and wailing. But as soon as we’re out of sight, he’s quiet and happy. Kids are manipulative little critters, so don’t get sucked into that show.
We started a new day care and it’s fantastic – lots of outdoor space, male carers (which I think is a good thing), vegetarian food (so I don’t worry about him not eating vegetables at home) and walking distance from home and (Dr. O’C)’s work. He’s better off there interacting with other kids than he would be at home with one of us for a lot of the time.
As usual, I left the comment and moved on. And this is where it becomes Dr. O’C’s fault. She discovered last night that a commentator who I don’t know and shan’t name had replied. Her comment follows. Italics are mine and I’ve removed names:
I don’t agree with Free Man. There are sacrifices you have to make for your children to be with you but living on one income is certainly possible! (Husband) is in the Army and doesn’t make that much and we live VERY comfortably! I am at home with our three children everyday. I feel bad for people who REALLY can’t do the SAHM thing but there are a lot of families out there that could if they cut back on expenses and prioritized their lives.
I am sure (Blogger) would have preferred to wait until she was out of (City) to have (her baby) but because of her health situation decided to have her while she was still able. Unfortunately (her baby) will be missing her Mommy during the first 2 years of her life but maybe you can come home to be with her full time when you get out of that expensive place! At least its just 3 days a week.
I worked at a day care for a month and HATED it. Watching the kids scream and cry and constantly ask where their mommy and daddy were was just heartbreaking and watching the parents disappointment when the child WOULDN’T respond when they were leaving was sad too. Even when we distracted the child long enough for the parents to leave, they would cry their eyeballs out at some point during the day wondering why mommy and daddy left them there.And I have to disagree with you on the socialization thing. Babies don’t need other babies or people, she needs YOU (Blogger)! I wish you were able to put that career thing aside for her.
oh and free man, My kids have everything they need, over abundance of clothing, toys, friends, food, parents, pets, and even college paid for so I am not sure what else a child could NEED. And even if they didn’t have the college thing, I think paying your own way through college certainly builds better character and you have more to be proud of and appreciate if you get yourself through it.
Right. I’ve been watching the whole series of The Sopranos over again, so when Dr. O’C read this to me, my immediate response was a suggestion that this person engage in a type of auto-erotic behavior that’s technically impossible.
And I really wanted to leave it alone.
But, you know what, I’m not going to.
First of all, if you’re a stay at home parent, I’ve got the utmost respect for you. That’s fantastic and I hope you’re finding it rewarding both for yourself and your children. Honestly – goodonya. I want it to be clear – I do not have a problem with stay-at-home parents in general. Just this one.
Some people don’t want to put their lives on hold for five or more years (assuming you start work after the kids go to school). Some people don’t want to put the ‘career thing’ aside for their kids. This particular blogger, like myself and Dr. O’C, spent close to a decade in tertiary education and we didn’t do this much education to drop out of the workplace as soon as we bred. We believe that you can balance parenting and a career.
Does that make us bad parents?
Speaking for myself and Dr. O’C, we’ve worked hard to integrate our roles as parents and providers. Dr. O’C stayed home with Boy Z for nearly his whole first year – longer than anticipated. She breastfed for nine months. We worked very hard to find a good daycare for him. We arrange our schedules so that Zach spends as little time as possible each day in day care, at the expense of time spent together. I work odd hours and weekends and from home to make sure he’s at home with me for at least one weekday on top of the weekends. I value virtually every moment I’ve got with my son.
Does that make us bad parents?
It’s not about expensive toys – don’t be stupid. We’re not spending money like drunken Republicans. We’ve emigrated around the world and need the income to afford to buy a house in which to raise our children, but it’s not even about money. When I say that it isn’t the 1950’s I mean that the black and white, soft focus Cleaver clan isn’t the norm these days. Gender roles have changed. Women often want more out of life than staying at home baking cookies and popping valium. Both Dr. O’C and I are professional people. We’re well educated people. We want the best for our kids just the same as anyone else does. But I believe that children who are raised by a healthy and happy couple are more likely to be healthy and happy. Neither Dr. O’C nor I would be healthy and happy if we gave up careers that we busted our asses for to stay home with kids. Our kids will be raised in a household that values education, hard work and happiness and will know that the three are not mutually exclusive.
Does that make us bad parents?
Children are not the center of the universe. In fact, giving a child the impression that the world revolves around him or her is very possibly the best way to create a spoiled little monster. Kids need perspective on the world, they need to learn about how to socialize with their peers and people other than their parents. Day care affords them this opportunity. I’ve seen it in Boy Z. When he started day care he was petrified of anyone who wasn’t me or Dr. O’C. In the time he’s spent in day care, he’s developing into a much more outgoing child. Now, I’m sure that kids that stay at home do just fine, but I’m equally sure that kids who go to daycare do just fine.
Does that make me a bad parent?
But what annoyed me the most about this is the arrogance of this commentator. She worked in a day care center for a month and thus is an expert on children in day care? She feels bad for people who can’t do the stay at home parent thing? She’s sure that my friend’s kid will be missing her Mommy? What about her Daddy? Won’t she miss her Daddy? She hopes that my friend puts the career-thing aside? She knows how my friend’s child – how my child- is going to respond to day care? Does she get some kind of thrill by trolling around the internet making people feel like bad parents?
Despite my occasional wringing of hands and fears of inadequacies I know that I’m a good dad. I’m a damn good dad. Dr. O’C is a damn good mum. We work hard to make sure our son is happy, healthy and well-adjusted. And we’re doing a damn good job at it – day care or no day care.
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by Danielle
08 May 2009 at 17:27
lol I’m enjoying reading your posts
What do you lecture in?
by suzer
08 May 2009 at 18:26
Unpopular opinion: A lot of SAHM mom’s (and yes I respect their decision to do so if they can) do need to get a life; you would be amazed how much criticism I get for being childfree by choice from the same people…enough said.
suzers last blog post..Happy Cinco de Mayo!
by Trish
08 May 2009 at 18:26
First rule of e-parenting: don’t get involved in online discussions with anyone who passes judgment on other parents’ choices.
I made this dreadful mistake once (I was a SAHM at the time), got myself embroiled in a knock-down, drag-out e-fight that sapped me of so much energy that when it came to fixing myself my 4pm martini I couldn’t even get the lid off the jar of olives.
Trishs last blog post..My new favourite sandwich.
by suzer
08 May 2009 at 18:26
mmmmmm, martini…
suzers last blog post..Happy Cinco de Mayo!
by SSG
08 May 2009 at 18:54
I hate conflict, arguing and fights, but I will back you up on your point ” I’m sure that kids that stay at home do just fine, but I’m equally sure that kids who go to daycare do just fine.” And I would say I’m sure those with mums (and dads) at home do fine, and those with mums (and dads) at work do fine. Though, as you pointed out, it’s not the 1950s so there’s not the same pressure on women to have to stay at home. Going to work does not make you a bad parent. Being a single parent does not make you a bad parent. Being a foster parent does not make you a bad parent. Having an only child does not make you a bad parent. Having 6 kids does not make you a bad parent. Sending your child to a comprehensive or a fee paying school, making them pay college or you paying college, does not make you a bad parent.
Seriously, there are fucked up things humans do that I would say qualifies you as being a bad parent. And I don’t think anyone mentioned here falls into this category.
However, AFM you’re my mate and Dr O’C too so if people are mean to you and about your choices I don’t like it. I don’t like mean people.
You and the blogger you wrote about have fundamentally different views, it appears, and no amount of arguing or blogging is going to change that. But you can both be good parents.
However, as you say, this other blogger seems to think her way is the only, and best, way, which it clearly isn’t. You gotta be open to other views as a parent, yes, you have to be strong in your beliefs, but you gotta see other people’s point of view. Saying “I feel bad for people who REALLY can’t do the SAHM thing but there are a lot of families out there that could if they cut back on expenses and prioritized their lives.” assumes that the SAHM (initially I thought this was a mis-spelling of ’same’”, eedjit i am) thing is the best and right thing to do. It’s just one option of many.
I think if your parents are happy and happy with their kids then their kids are likely to be happy too, and if staying at home means giving up part of what makes you you then staying at home wont make you, or your kids, very happy.
I’d compare it to the view of some that divorcing parents makes kids unhappy, but I’d say having parents constantly arguing and knowing they’re staying together for you, with an unhappy home life, can make kids unhappy.
Dude, you and Dr O’C are great parents and everyone knows this. If some kids had parents half as good as yous they’d be doing well. In fact, i’m jealous of wee Z having such great parents. Keep doing your thing, there will always be people who think something you do is wrong.
SSGs last blog post..Walk like you mean it
by Noble Savage
08 May 2009 at 21:30
I completely get your need to rant. This woman sounds like a piece of work; someone who is so sure that her choice is the right one for her that she truly cannot believe that there could be an alternative OR (and this is more likely) so UNsure of her choice that she has to belittle those who make different ones from her, so that she can feel better about it again.
However, I do take issue with a couple little comments you made in your post. One does not have to “put [your] life on hold for five years” when staying home with children. This suggests that working from home is not possible, or that full-time childrearing means pausing your ‘real’ life to perform this (unreal?) duty. I consider staying at home with my kids for a few years to be an integral part of my ‘real’ life and I haven’t had to completely put a stop to my intellectual or professional development simply because I’m at home with them. Granted, I’m a writer so it’s fairly easy to work from home, but I just wanted to clarify that staying at home doesn’t always equal this doom-and-gloom waste of education and employment opportunities that it is sometimes made out to be.
The other comment you made that seemed a bit like a barb was “Women often want more out of life than staying at home baking cookies and popping valium.” I’m sure you didn’t mean to reinforce a gross generalisation and stereotype and were simply ‘typing in anger’ (hoo boy, haven’t I done that before!) but that’s what it came across as to me. I assure you that no cookie baking or Valium popping are going on here….only opening up a packet of Oreos and pouring a glass of wine as needed for medicinal purposes.
Trotting out the ‘unhappy housewife’ of the 1950s is not a valid argument against SAHMs because those women were often forced into the role. Today, most women who have stayed at home have chosen to do so and the work they do is valid, real work.
Anyway, I didn’t mean to rain on your parade –err, rant — just wanted to note those couple things. The woman in question obviously has issues and you’d do well to ignore people like her. Just like I have learned to roll my eyes and bite my tongue when I get the ocassional person who smugly assumes I must be suicidal, not ‘using my brain’ at all, and my kids poorly socialised, I’d steer clear of women like her and try to remember that we don’t all think like her. The fact that she’s a SAHM is merely incidental to her attitude, not the cause of it.
Noble Savages last blog post..Observation station
by Prefers Her Fantasy Life
08 May 2009 at 21:43
There are so many ingredients that go into raising children that breaking them down into two categories is as stupid as the way drunken Republicans spend money.
Wonder was that SAHM would think about this mom showing her cleavage to the world.
Not to advertise myself here, Chris, but you seemed to have missed it. You click on the backdoor, scroll down past the picture of Hillary, and click on the Blog Behind The Blog Behind The Blog. It’s there. It’s me.
Prefers Her Fantasy Lifes last blog post..Would You Want This Woman Teaching Your Children?
by eden
08 May 2009 at 21:57
Ahhhh, Chris. Good on you for writing this.
My baby is in daycare to help me cope better. I’m just too chickenshit to write a proper post about it …. what is this “work” of which you speak? I need to go home, daydream, get a facial, breathe, and remember who I am.
I did IVF to get this baby and I need a break from this baby. Shoot me. String me up.
But f*ck I’m such a better mother for it.
edens last blog post..Happy Thirty-Tenth Birthday, Linda and Leigh
by Jacob
08 May 2009 at 22:52
I think I’ve made my opinion of parents quite clear. Being a parent makes you a bad person.
But, seriously, the thing about the baby having to have the mother all the time is a little bogus. In a lot of traditional cultures, the extended family, and often the elderly who can’t go out and hunt and gather or farm do as much if not more of the care than the birth mother. Heck, in some hunter gatherer societies, lactating mothers just feed whichever kid is closest.
That’s not to say that I don’t think parents should prioritize their kids pretty high up the list and I have no problems with people who stay home with them (as long as they don’t neglect the socializing aspect). I also think that people who have certain types of career lives should probably avoid having kids. If both of you are only home after the kid is in bed, you probably shouldn’t have reproduced, but that’s extreme cases. I just don’t think parents who don’t work excessively should feel guilty about working instead of doting on their children all day.
Kim and I are lucky. We both teach, meaning for most of the year, we drop our son off around 7:30 a.m, and pick him up by 4 p.m. For June and July, we are stay at home parents. He stays with a lady who keeps six teachers’ kids in her home and honestly, he’s never pitched a fit when we left him. He has not wanted to come home with us in the afternoons, though. There’s one girl who actually pitches fits when she has to leave some days. Part of that is our attitude. We don’t feel guilty or make a big deal out of going to his daycare so he doesn’t read our emotions and get upset.
Plus, contrary to what that quoted commenter said, young children do need socializing with their peers. When they’re that crying, pooping lump that they are for most of the first year, sure they don’t get much out of it, but as soon as they’re crawling and interacting with others, I think they need to start practicing being with others. We live out in the boonies with no neighbor kids and we only have the one so his only socialization on a regular basis is at daycare.
The important parts, you need to take parenting seriously, but you don’t have to be there 24-7. The kid does benefit from being around other kids, but the quality of the daycare matters. There gets to be a point where there are just too many kids and not enough adults to make the kid feel comfortable.
Jacobs last blog post..The Children Need a Bath
by lora
08 May 2009 at 23:07
My son is exposed to different kinds of children in a loving, safe home environment. He displays tolerance for others, for rules (especially different sets of rules that occur in different settings he is exposed to), and to interpersonal differences at a level that is unmatched by many 3 year old children I have ever known or have worked with in a professional setting. I attribute that to daycare and the fact that he is surrounded by all sorts of people that truly love and care about him- whether at home, at daycare, or with various family members. I subscribe to the “It Takes a Village” thought of raising well adjusted children.
I have never had a problem with separation anxiety or trust with him. Of course it is hard to leave him sometimes, but I have never come back to him feeling sad I left him in the morning. Hell, I have a hard time putting him to bed sometimes. It’s hard on somedays, not so much on others. Big deal. It’s life.
My kid LOVES daycare and I LOVE working full time. I don’t want to be like my SAHM friends who have very little contact with reality outside of other SAHMs who they bitch about every time I see them.
My life is not defined by the fact that I have spit out a baby, therefore I refused to stop working (or living fully) the minute I became I mother. I love being a mom who works. I love being a wife that works. I love being a woman that works. I love being everything that I am, and I know I do it all well. I understand that it is not every woman’s/mother’s/wife’s/person’s choice to wear several different hats but it is the right choice for me. Therefore, I respect when someone else makes a different choice. I don’t understand why that respect isn’t always returned.
My career helps better the community that I live in. By going to work every day, I am improving the condition under which my child, and hundreds of thousands of others are living in. If I was at home I am afraid I would feel helpless, and at the mercy of everyone out there who was working. Politicians, teachers, community workers, social workers, etc would be making decisions for me, and not with me. I couldn’t handle that life.
I don’t like to feel like a bystander. When I became a mother, I refused to feel that way. I actively fight for what I feel is right for my family.
That helps me sleep at night.
Okay, I’m stopping. This is a sensitive subject for me, and I run the risk of going on and on and on about it
loras last blog post..shorts
by A Free Man
08 May 2009 at 23:25
I’ve already edited this post quite heavily and am seriously considering taking it down. I fear I’m going to attract some vitriol and believe it or not, I don’t like vitriol. We’ll see how we go.
Suzer – I’m sure. My office mate has made the same decision and she has some tales to tell.
Trish – Probably good advice and all the more reason to think about nipping this in the bud. The last time I did a controversial post – autism and MMR – spurred me to switch addresses and stop using my real name on the internet.
SSG – Just to clarify, the person that fired me up was a commentator on my friend’s blog. My friend is putting her little girl into day care for the first time. I don’tknow who the commentator is.
She does say her husband’s in the army and thus probably away a lot. That can’t be ideal for kids either can it? I guess the point is not to offer unsolicited and judgmental advice to people.
NS – A couple of things. If you can work at home, if that’s your line of work, with young kids then that’s outstanding. I wish I could. That would be an ideal world for me. I don’t mean to imply that that is impossible, but it’s still the exception rather than the rule.
Now, I should be careful as a writer. By no means did I mean to reinforce that stereotype of the bored, pill-popping housewife. In fact, what I’m saying is the opposite – that stereotype of the 50’s housewife no longer exists. That women want the choice of being able to remain in the workplace while raising children. And people that come in with grand and bogus pronouncements about how that decision hurts the children are doing little more than reinforcing that stereotype. I’m pretty sure we’re on the same side of this issue, NS, but apologies if I got loose with my language.
Eden – That’s the thing, there’s no set recipe for parenting. You do what you have to do to stay happy. Happy parents, happy child.
Jacob – I agree that kids should be high on the list and I agree that you’ve got to make the time for them. I work two jobs, Dr.O’C works full time, but we arrange our schedules so that he almost always goes into day care around 8 and gets picked up around 4. When Dr. O’C’s mum is around it’s often less than that.
What I bristled at is the implication that I should feel guilty for putting my child in day care, for wanting a decent career at the same time. The implication that these things are mutually exclusive. What really pisses me off, though, is the implication that I work rather than stay at home so I can buy my kids expensive toys – that my priorities are misplaced. I mean, this woman doesn’t know me yet she’s willing to make value judgements about my decisions.
Phew. Calm down, Chris.
A Free Mans last blog post..An open letter to a stay-at-home-Mum
by The Unbearable Banishment
08 May 2009 at 23:33
For what it’s worth, if (Husband) is in the Army, that means her housing, medical and many other necessities are provided for by Uncle Sam. If he had a traditional job, she might find herself on the business end of day care.
by A Free Man
08 May 2009 at 23:42
Lora – Well said and better than I could have said it. I think you’ve convinced me to leave this one up.
A Free Mans last blog post..An open letter to a stay-at-home-Mum
by arizaphale
08 May 2009 at 23:53
You know, I know a parent who can be ‘at home’ for vast amounts of time and have NO interaction with his child whatsoever. It’s not really SAH v Work…it’s what you do with the time you have available.
You’re right AFM, you and Dr O’C are damn good parents. I’ve seen you parent so I can say that.
arizaphales last blog post..Theme Thursday: Love
by Nichole
09 May 2009 at 00:07
I’m glad Noble Savage called you out on the “baking cookies and popping valium” thing. (Even though I do like to bake cookies.) The dangerous thing about this sort of argument is that the combatants generally fall back on stereotypes to make their “point.” Kind of like a riled-up conservative talk show host.
This is not to say I think you should quit your jobs and stay home with Z. You two have worked hard for your careers, and you both enjoy your work. (Mostly.) You’re doing what’s right for your family; we’re doing what’s right for ours. Now keep your mudslinging double-talk* to yourself.
* “I love stay-at-home moms! Except that they’re pill-popping layabouts with anti-social children.”
(Love you. Really. Having a bad SAHM morning.)
Nicholes last blog post..Strange but true
by Florida Girl In Sydney
09 May 2009 at 00:54
People who only speak from their own small world are just plain ignorant.
Everyone has parenting guilt, whether it’s a working parent who never can do enough to make time for their kids, or a SAHM who can barely get through the day with a difficult child. No body has it easy, and a SAHM who can’t wrap her mind around people being able to balance parenting and working is just asking for a lashing.
Florida Girl In Sydneys last blog post..It’s Not Me, It’s You
by Jud
09 May 2009 at 01:42
Well, here’s my 2 cents. Do we really know if our efforts with our kids will pan out? Do we?
I like to think I am reasonably well adjusted, but not without my quirks and foibles. How much does this have to do with my mother and father and how many hugs I got? I think there is a lot of room for speculation.
I know that for Little One, she was at home until she started K3 (1/2 day 3 year old stuff) and has been in some sort of program ever since. I think she has really enjoyed it. She is very social, as is her mother, and I know they would have both been bored to tears with only each other as primary company for most of that time.
My Wifey is a good mom, but not the kind to sit and play barbies or do crafts. She is much more of a good outside and throw a ball, etc. She is not much of a book reader. I complement by filling that role and coloring and reading and doing projects etc.
Will Little One turn out OK and recall her childhood with fondness? I sure as hell hope so, but only time will tell, and I am unwilling to either take all of the credit or all of the blame for her life, just as I can neither give all the credit or blame for my successes or failures in my life on my parents.
I think you should try to do the best you can with what you have, and hope for the best.
Juds last blog post..Haircut
by headbang8
09 May 2009 at 01:47
I am living, breathing proof that you’re right, AFM. My mother gave up being a lawyer to have kids, and it was one ofthe things that made her an unhappy miserable parent. She depended on her children to provide emotional rewards that they couldn’t give her, and ended up resenting them for it. It gave all her children problems with a capital P.
headbang8s last blog post..Photo Friday: Casual
by courtney
09 May 2009 at 01:55
I have no children, so obviously I am not an expert on this subject. But I am an expert in hating people who don’t mind their own business, so I say this SAHM who challenged your parenting style can go to hell.
I agree that day care is just a way of life now, and it’s unfortunate that some people are still stuck in 1955 and think it’s the woman’s job to stay at home with the kids. I was raised to value my brain and my education over my reproductive abilities, and that’s why I will not have any kids until I’m settled in a career. And since I’ve spent a lot of time, money and effort on that career, I’m not about to put it aside the second I get pregnant.
Yes, your kids should be a huge priority in your life, and if they’re not, you shouldn’t have any. But I also agree with Suzer: A lot of SAHMs need to get a life. Parents who make their kids think they’re the center of the universe are going to end up with spoiled brats, and I think it sets a better example to have your own life outside child-raising. It may be hard to drop a kid off at day care, but if you have other things in life other than your kids, one day they’ll respect you more for it.
courtneys last blog post..The Pier
by rassles
09 May 2009 at 01:59
Sweet Jesus, when will people realize that answering a qualitative question is impossible?
This is not directed towards you, or your commentators. The concept of self-imposed entitlement, betterness, one-ness…it’s bullshit.
There is no right or wrong in the world, not anymore, you’re right. Then again I’m not sure there ever was. I feel like in the past there was a moral code applied to people’s lives by the leaders of society, and without being exposed to another way of thought, how is it even possible to understand different practices and perceptions, or even know they existed?
With the advancement of technology, so came the abolition of black and white. Everything is subjective.
rassless last blog post..Having Things.
by rassles
09 May 2009 at 02:01
PS: By different practices and perceptions, I mean like, variety in anything. Food. Fighting. Love. Religion. Socks.
rassless last blog post..Having Things.
by chris
09 May 2009 at 02:08
I haven’t read everyone else’s comments yet so this may have been said already but here’s my take on this.
One of the big obstacles that stands in the way of feminist progress is that women do not support the choices of other women. A woman should be able to feel ok about staying home without calling into question the choices of another woman who doesn’t Likewise, a woman who either has to work or chooses to work shouldn’t feel like she has to infantilize a woman who stays home with her children. I personally think it is because women can be insecure about their parenting. It’s a very important job that everyone wants to do well and women look to each other too much for approval and guidance to whether they are “doing it right”.
I know lots of women who work and make lots of time for their kids, I also know lots of women who stay home whose kids would be better off in the interactive environment of preschool.
I am in what I think is the luckiest position. I have a business and a job(and a husband) that allows for a light schedule for the time being. I’m home the better part of the week and it’s great. Still, I need to have something else, maybe not everyone does but I do. I need to have someplace to go where no one leaves their shit ont he floor or asks me for juice. Work for me is a sanity saver.
Chris I think you are also right about kids not being the center of the universe. I know so many moms who sacrifice themselves and their relationship with their mates for there kids. The best gift one can give there kids is a healthy relationship with their partner and happy parents.
I think women have to stop being catty and be more supportive of each other’s choice. Just because I may choose something different doesn’t mean I’m judging your choice. And just because I’m doing it different than you doesn’t mean I’m doing it wrong.
If women were more strategic and less judgmental, we’d have found a way to have working moms and SAHM help each other out so that everyone benefits. I would love to pay a SAHM to help with some meal prep or take turns watching each others kids or stuff like that.
Women will only reach the next feminist milestone when we stop looking at each other and saying you’re doing it wrong.
chriss last blog post..Soapbox Part Deux
by Gwen Jackson
09 May 2009 at 02:54
I am disgusted by the judgmental tone of that woman’s comment. Career thing? Really? I think the most important gift we can give our children is the experience of watching adults live a happy and fulfilled life. That could mean different things to different people. What is happy and fulfilling to one person, might not be to another.
Gwen Jacksons last blog post..The Couch
by Nathan B.
09 May 2009 at 03:51
AFM, thank you for bringing up the daddy perspective on this…apparently it isn’t OK for both parents to work, but perfectly fine if daddy misses 40-50 hours a week in the child’s life.
by Noble Savage
09 May 2009 at 04:00
Just an FYI: saying that you want to work/do work/will work when you have kids because you want to “use your brain” or not “waste your education” is incredibly insulting. Taking care of children is not a brainless, unskilled job that any chimp in a tracksuit could do. If that were true would anyone be paying wads of money to put their children into well-run and staffed daycares? I think parents would expect those looking after their children to employ a wide spectrum of skills and competencies, all of which require a brain, not to mention an incredible level of patience and sensitivity. And by god, if you think education is completely wasted by taking a few years off to raise children then you’ve not been educated at all, you’ve been brainwashed to believe that it’s not really work unless you earn a paycheque.
If your career is such that taking any time off when your children are small *would* make your education a ‘waste’ then campaign for more family-friendly policies within your field and childcare/flextime solutions for parents working in that field. All of us should be able to have a life/work balance and not spend all of our lives doing one or the other if that’s not what we want.
People think that we’re living in a post-feminism world just because women have all these “choices” with regards to work but they forget one thing — women’s choices changed but the structure didn’t. So we still have women who want or need to work but very un-family-friendly workplaces. We have more fathers who want to be involved in childrearing than before, but a practically non-existent paternity leave and very little flexibility in terms of flexible hours or going part time. And, as Chris pointed out, an economic setup that requires many families to have two incomes. We should be using our energy to fight for bettering the situation for all parents, regardless of whether they work outside the home or inside, not bickering and calling each other names.
Noble Savages last blog post..Smells like childhood
by blues
09 May 2009 at 04:16
I didn’t have a chance to catch up on all the comments here, so sorry if this is repetative commenting.
Thanks for expressing this – it’s insulting. i get it all the time when i go home, and I don’t even have kids yet! I get it from my parents, from my siblings, inquiries as to when we are going to stop being selfish and spitting out small humans and when we do, if I am going to do what’s right and stay at home or if I am going to be selfish and continue working so that I feel “fulfilled”. Of course, questions of this sort are never raised to my husband, the frowning upon is only upon the woman in this case.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to live here in Spain on one salary. Unless you want to reach retirement age and not even offer your children the tranquility of knowing that at least their parents have paid for the roof they are living under.
Being a SAHM, in my opinion, is a luxury. I envy people who are able to do it, and I envy those that are able to do it and feel fulfilled in life, because I know that is a hard thing.
It angers me to hear this kind of thing. How in the fuck are women to be expected to push their careers aside when they have been pushed their whole lives to develop themselves outside of the family realm?
bluess last blog post..I want to tell you about my family but unfortunately this is where the story begins
by Xbox4NappyRash
09 May 2009 at 04:43
If we waited until we could afford to live on 1 of our sole incomes, so there could be someone at home full time, we would never be able to have a family. I mean that as literally as it reads.
Full stop.
Xbox4NappyRashs last blog post..Naive miles
by AmiExpat
09 May 2009 at 04:58
I’ve got to second everything Noble Savage has written. I spent most of my life in school, and don’t think that I’m wasting my education by now staying at home with my child. As the majority of commentors have stated, it should be up to the parent and there should be no judgment, but then you turn around and judge all SAHMs by the things this one has said.
Not every mother wants to work, that doesn’t mean she’s wasting her education, losing contact with reality, not living fully, and turning her kids into spoiled brats. And not every SAHM is a Republican who would rage at the sight of cleavage (I have no idea where that comment came from, cause most SAHMs I know are FAR from that). I’m a far-left leaning, extended breastfeeding, attachment parenting practicing American living happily in Europe.
Not every mother wants to stay at home, that doesn’t mean she’s neglecting her kids or is a bad parent.
Only you know what is best for you and your family, as only I know what is best for me and mine. I hope for a time when we can all learn to support each others decisions and not belittle them.
AmiExpats last blog post..Real German Cuisine Challenge: Shrimp ragout
by Damon
09 May 2009 at 04:58
With the time difference, seems like I’m always chiming in way late on your topics.
Oh boy, here we go again with this topic…..doesn’t sound like the debate will end anytime soon.
As my circle of friends used to tell our buddy in high school with the “less than attractive” steady girlfriend, it’s QUALITY not quantity. This remains true with time spent with your kids as well.
Kids do need some mommy & daddy one-on-one time each day, but not as much as you’ve been lead to believe. My wife has read studies that indicate between 1/2 and 1 hour is sufficient. Kids need time to play by themselves, connect with other kids, and interact with other adults.
As far as the having a SAHP vs. two working parents, it’s a decision to be made between the two partners. Everyone else should mind their own business. Some parents clearly aren’t designed to remain at-home (my wife fits into this category)…while others feel just as satisfied being a domestic engineer.
Whatever drives the final decision of who brings home the bacon, and who fries it up in a pan…..consider the kids first. Give ‘em shelter, nourishment, and a ton of stimuli. The best gift you can give children is their CHILDHOOD. This is what they remember and cherish years later.
Damons last blog post..Bring back ‘Cheers’
by Jacob
09 May 2009 at 05:01
Free Man, I was entirely in agreement with you. I just mentioned the other stuff so that someone didn’t think I was going off the deep end because before that paragraph, I easily could have been implying that a parent has no obligation to raise their own children. There is a point when career and parenting can be in conflict, but I have had no reason to think your situation was that sort. In fact, from what you’ve written in the past, I assumed just the opposite.
Jacobs last blog post..Interesting Take on Wonder Bread and Mass Farming
by Jacob
09 May 2009 at 05:02
But you know what they say about assuming. It makes an ass out of Uma Thurman.
That works better verbally where ume can be pronounced as a homonym of uma.
by chris
09 May 2009 at 06:56
I think you should change your title to An Open Letter to Anyone Who Thinks They Have a Monopoly on Knowledge of How to Parent. Seriously, it goes both ways.
chriss last blog post..Soapbox Part Deux
by heather
09 May 2009 at 07:19
Ah. This is my territory. I could, can, and will rant and rant about all of this, but, today I am going to make a statement that I feel to be true.
After being closely involved with the lives of literally 1000+ children, I believe that the option to stay home is about the parent not the child. SAHMs & SAHDs don’t want to work at a job. That they justify it through “it’s better for the kids” is irksome.
I have SAHM/D students with enormous emotional/parent problems and some that are great and vice-versa. I have seen no evidence that the kids “turn out better.”
I would love to hear someone say, “I just really didn’t want to work at a job while I had little kids.” I’ll respond, “I hear that,” and “I did what I felt I needed to do.”
heathers last blog post..The Silent Time
by chris
09 May 2009 at 07:29
Heather, that’s a huge part of why I’m home as much as I am with my youngest. I don’t multitask well, when I’m at work, I am laser focused and don’t switch gears easily, and I get way fucking cranky when I’m overwhelmed which any mom who works can attest to– the getting overwhelmed is pretty much a daily thing. I am lucky that my husband makes enough money for us to live the way we want and that my income is the “supplemental” one. I work three days a week because I hate stress, love spending time with my daughter at this age and have the option and luxury of flexability. I think moms and dads who have fulltime jobs give up a lot more of their “me time” in order to be present for their kids. I think my daughter(as well as my older two) benefits from me being home most of the week in part because with my needs being met, I am a nicer person to be around. It certainly isn’t the only thing that went into our decision to have one of us home for the first 2 years but it certainly was part of it. I look forward to going back to work full time but I don’t miss trying to juggle everything.
chriss last blog post..Soapbox Part Deux
by Carolyn Online
09 May 2009 at 07:53
Oh man. It’s not a stay at home mom vs. a working mom thing. It’s a judgemental thing. Some people always feel the need to defend their choice even when no one was questioning it.
Don’t you think most parents are really just trying to do what’s best for their family? And those things are probably different for everyone.
Also, the first rule of Fight Club is you never talk about Fight Club.
Carolyn Onlines last blog post..That Wii Fit bitch better just step off.
by admin
09 May 2009 at 08:04
I’ve just woken up and you guys have given me lots of food for thought. Some things I will say:
It is a judgement thing, not a who’s right thing. (Though, I am right)
B. Heather, I would have loved to have said what you said, but I’m pretty sure I would have been skewered for it, so thanks.
C. Look, the pill-popping thing. Read that. I don’t say that SAHMs are lazy pill poppers, quite the contrary.
D. The blogger who was unnamed had left a comment and then asked that it be deleted. This is unfortunate, but understandable.
Now, if you’ll excuse me I have some weekend parenting to do…
by Andrea
09 May 2009 at 08:42
Thanks so much for this post AFM. I hear you.
I also wanted to point out that there are certain careers where taking even just a year out of the field can have dire consequences. Like the one in which AFM, Dr O’C, the friend with the original blog and myself are involved. (I came back from mat leave and started hearing all this 454, illumina crap and only now have a good grasp on the implications.) Even my C, who has an awesome parental leave option that gives him 90-something% top-up when off and delays in tenure/promotion time lines, feels the heat when considering taking the time off. In this day and age (well 2 years ago), he was the first male prof in his department to take any parental leave when he took 2 months with our first.
I sometimes feel bad for our LO on the weekends, that he isn’t getting the same kind of stimulation etc that he would normally get at day care. One of the music programs that we enjoyed when LO was an infant gave me some particular insight. The instructor was explaining a particular activity, how it included stimulating various different senses along with hearing the music, which followed specific tenets of early childhood learning (I clearly don’t remember all the details). All I had thought about it was “Gee he really likes the different coloured scarves being drapped over him with this sappy lullaby.” Would I have thought of doing this on my own? I really doubt it. And I certainly wouldn’t have realized all the ramifications that doing this kind of activity was having on LO’s brain development and all. A good daycare with qualified care givers offers the benefit of another, well-educated perspective to help us raise our child to the best of our abilities.
by A Free Man
09 May 2009 at 08:49
This issue of work and waste and the like. It varies from career to career, but let’s say a Mum (or Dad) is a research scientist. No way to work at home. You must be in the lab. If you take 5 – 7 years off for the kids, you will have lost – yes, lost – that 5-7 years of your career. In a field that implicitly believes that if you haven’t made any major contributions by the time that your 30 then you may as well give up (I heard these very words on more than one occasion) that is an education, in some ways, wasted.
It ain’t me that decides these things, especially because I was 32 when I got my Ph.D. and the idea of campaigning to change the system is fine, but that doesn’t do any good for someone that’s facing down both the proverbial biological clock and the more literal career clock.
Let’s be realistic. Many, if not most, women and men who decide to have children have got to face a similar gauntlet – it’s extremely difficult to do both. And I’ve seen firsthand, inside the purportedly liberal universities, women get left behind when they decide to have a family. Hopefully it does change, but it’s not going to change this week.
Don’t get me started on the lack of paternity leave.
A Free Mans last blog post..An open letter to a stay-at-home-Mum
by admin
09 May 2009 at 09:03
Ah, Andrea beat me to the punch and much more eloquently.
by Teri
09 May 2009 at 10:52
Hey AFM. Respect goes all around. There is no such thing as perfect and there is no one “Right Way” to raise a child. The debate is too polarized, generally speaking. I think because there is ‘choice’ in childrearing (e.g. it’s not the 1950s where most Moms stay at home) we become perfectionists on both sides. We try to justify it as the right way, in an outcome-based sense.
I agree with you in thinking that kids from both situations turn out fine. However we choose to parent, it shouldn’t be about outcomes, as I do think loving parents produce generally well adapted kids, no matter how they divide up care.
I think it’s a lifestyle choice. And you raise many good points for continuing work, particularly if you put a lot of time and effort into education. On the other hand, it’s nice to not have that stress in juggling both, from a stay at home parent standpoint (I’ve been at home with kids for 5+ years). I’m a workaholic by nature. I’m glad I’m only overdoing it on onen end. For me, that’s why it works.
I have more thoughts, but I’ve got to close. I’ll post more on my own site later on.
Cheers.
by Teri
09 May 2009 at 11:04
P.S. It’s stressful doing it both ways, as I’ve experienced and observed from friends. I think the nature of having young kids is stressful. It’s not easier if you stay at home or work. It just is different stress. It’s about choosing what works for you.
The kids will do fine, in most cases, either way.
I have a bit of a struggle with depression, which I’ve learned is about stress-tolerance. I have a low stress tolerance. People that don’t struggle with depression have a higher stress tolerance. I think I would struggle with depression weather I worked outside of the home or stayed at home full time. It’s just part of the territory of having young kids.
OK, I need to be done. It’s a big cyber hug. I think you and Dr. OC are from all I can see great parents. And I’m sure Boy Z and your new one will do great.
Again, respect and cheers to you.
Teris last blog post..We’re home
by Noble Savage
09 May 2009 at 17:18
SAHMs & SAHDs don’t want to work at a job. That they justify it through “it’s better for the kids” is irksome.
How is that kind of blanket statement (and an untrue one in many cases, I might add) any less judgemental than the accusation from this woman that Chris encountered? Your assertion that SAHPs aren’t actually working and only using childcare as an excuse because they can’t multitask is just as tiresome as the stereotype of the cold-hearted, career-obsessed, emotionally-bankrupt working parent. Come ON, do we really have to go there? It doesn’t do anyone any favours.
And, by the way, not all parents who are at home full time are doing so out of choice. Parents who have to work are given all this sympathy about being parted from their children but what about people like me? I would love to work at least part-time but the only opportunities available to me are secretarial work or retail/service industry jobs that would cost me more in the childcare and travel costs than just staying at home. Also, I breastfeed so anything that takes me away from my youngest for more than a couple/few hours at a time wouldn’t work. Not many part-time jobs afford you breaks to pump. In short, I don’t have much of a choice either but my decision not to work is seen as a ‘lifestyle choice’ made out of privilege and luxury when it couldn’t be further from the truth.
Re: the whole ‘waste of an education’ thing. I understand that in some fields, even a short break would have dire consequences for one’s career and that for some people, the thought of not working after years spent attaining higher education would indeed feel like a ‘waste’, but not working would simply be the waste of an opportunity to use one’s education for *pay*, not a waste of the knowledge and insights gained. Unless you only got a Masters or PhD with the sole purpose of earning more money, your education has almost certainly made you into a more well-rounded, knowledgeable and worldly person. To say that this is ‘wasted’ on raising children is quite a sad commentary on how lowly we place those who do so full time. I’m sure the daycare providers with degrees would agree.
I think daycare has many advantages and a few disadvantages, the same as a child being with a primary caregiver. Each have pros and cons and that’s why each family has to do what is best for them. When I suggested campaigning for better family leave and flexible work hours I understand that this doesn’t help any of us much right now. But change has to start somewhere, right? We shouldn’t have to go into certain fields simply because they are more family-friendly (like education, nursing, social work, the arts, and other woman-centric areas) but instead place enough value on raising kids that a parent doesn’t have to make a black-and-white decision between Career and Children. As long as we keep them totally separate there will always be a division between us and that is what I’d like to see addressed, not who has it harder or who is doing a disservice to their kids.
Apologies for my novella comments, Chris! Brevity is not my strong suit.
Noble Savages last blog post..Smells like childhood
by kitty
09 May 2009 at 18:51
This is a lot of comments, I finished reading them at about 9,325. Wonder if anyone will ready this?
You go Chris! I thought I was the only one brave (read: foolish) enough to write posts like this.
So, in short – yes.
kittys last blog post..apparently i have onions
by Angel
09 May 2009 at 23:17
Let me apologize if I say something that has been said a million times by your other readers. After reading the post, I had no desire to read all those dang comments!
Please don’t take this post down. You needed to vent, you needed your point put out there, and Dr. O’C has every right to be livid, offended, and downright pissed off (if she is).
To judge any household on a topic like this is ridiculous! There are ways to make both options work for your family, and in my opinion, it’s up to each family to decide what’s best for them. I’m guessing half the kids of stay-at-home parents WISH they were shown a fraction of the love, affection, and attention that Boy Z gets daily. No one could read this blog and not see that.
I’ve been on both sides of the fence, and you can make it work both ways. Did I always enjoy knowing someone else might see my kid’s first steps, hear her first words, etc. besides me? No. But the opportunities and life I gave her were solid. On the other side? My mother devoted her entire life to staying home for her four children, and you know what? You’d be hard pressed to find a more bitter, more disappointed woman on this earth. Her children are grown now, and she feels like she has absolutely nothing in life that belongs to her. Is that the healthy choice?
One more thing, and I’ll regret this, I’m sure, but I’m putting it out there, anyway… because that’s just the sort of mood I’m in: I lived as a military wife for a few years. “Comfortably” on that pay? Not in this lifetime, sister. Get real.
by Florida Girl In Sydney
10 May 2009 at 00:19
I just want to agree with some people: Teri, FF, Noble Savage, Angel.
SAHP’s “don’t want a job”? It’s work no matter how you slice it… anyone who has spent a few days home alone with a couple of small children knows that “going to the office” can seem like a vacation.
If you don’t have a career which stemmed from so much education that staying at home would make it “a waste”, and you can afford to live on a single income– why should you work instead of staying home? Is working the ONLY right way?
Saying that someone stays home with their kids because they “just don’t want to work” is absurd.
As Rassles says– is there a wrong or right? No, but there’s judgmental and closed minded.
Everyone has to make the choices which are right for them, and from a former career person who has been home for five years, I can with all certainty that working in my little cubicle was far easier than entertaining, disciplining, feeding, and caring for two little kids– but that was my experience. Maybe someone with perfect children would have found it easier– I’m not sure. Doesn’t matter because I think everyone should do what’s right for their own situation. I still don’t know if my choices are right– but who is anyone to judge me?
Sorry for writing a book here.
Florida Girl In Sydneys last blog post..It’s Not Me, It’s You
by Nichole
10 May 2009 at 00:33
“SAHMs & SAHDs don’t want to work at a job. That they justify it through ‘it’s better for the kids’ is irksome.”
Seriously? That’s a huge generalization, and it’s at least as insulting as the “waste of education” claim.
by we_be_toys
10 May 2009 at 03:48
You go baby – jump up and down on that nerve you done exposed!
And for what it’s worth, as a SAHM, I think you guys are doing a great job of balancing work with home life. There is definitely more than one way to raise well-adjusted kids, and your way seems just fine to me.
But, now, where do I have to go to get the valium I’m supposed to be popping? Not wanting to disappoint anyone, you know!
Off to bake scones now…
we_be_toyss last blog post..We Interrupt This Blog To Bring You A Life
by heather
10 May 2009 at 06:55
I knew I would be skewered!
Yes, I said: “SAHMs & SAHDs don’t want to work at a job. That they justify it through ‘it’s better for the kids’ is irksome.”
Here’s the thing: it IS a sweeping generalization, but, it is my experience. Obviously, some people don’t fall into that category, but, this is not a case by case thing.
I just want to point out that I teach the children at school and trust me it is no oasis.
I prefer my summers with my 2 children as apposed to the 200 at work. In my case staying home is much easier and less stressful.
That is my case.
heathers last blog post..The Silent Time
by heather
10 May 2009 at 06:55
opposed – sorry.
heathers last blog post..The Silent Time
by Teri
10 May 2009 at 08:08
Hey y’all. I added some more thoughts on this topic on my own site. Check it out if you’d like:
http://teriofthenorth.blogspot.com/2009/05/sahm-debate-to-stay-at-home-with-kids.html
Teris last blog post..The SAHM debate: to stay at home with kids or not