We went to see “The Boys are Back” over the weekend. It wasn’t a film that either of us wanted to see, in particular, but we had a babysitter and an itch to spend some time in the cinema and it was either that, “Avatar” or a legion of other anodyne Hollywood swill.
I’m not sure that I’m glad we did. It’s not that it is a bad movie, it was very nicely done. Directed by Scott Hicks (”Shine“), and set in South Australia, it is the story of a single father (Clive Owen) suddenly thrust into full-time parenthood after the death of his wife. The scenery is stunning and the acting very good. It is a compelling story and despite a fairly depressing and demoralizing first hour, comes together happily at the end.
I like a happy ending.
But it got my mind working, racing in circles. The conflict in the film is the Clive Owen character’s development from virtual absentee father to single Dad. What made it so poignant for me was watching how badly he screws it up through the first three quarters of the film. He just doesn’t get it and does virtually everything wrong. I cringed at several obviously stupid parenting decisions and shook my head knowingly with the inevitable results.
One of the continual sources of stress for me is I am that Clive Owen Character. That I’m constantly screwing up while some celestial moviegoer shakes their head knowingly as I get it massively wrong? There is so much more to this fatherhood gig than I ever thought – the daily
On a daily basis, I think I do OK. We get through without much permanent injury. But when I look beyond the day, there are so many big questions, big issues that I just don’t know how to handle – from potty training to driver’s training. And when I think about the big issues, I start to get a little panicked. What’s the right way to teach them to read? Am I pushing them too hard or not hard enough? How do you deal with unacceptable behavior?
And that’s what got me thinking about spanking. Dr. O’C pointed out a recent well-publicized study from the U.S. claiming that children who are spanked may grow up to be happier, more productive adults. I cringe when I hear this kind of thing on the news, because without even looking much further I just know that it is likely to be bogus.
This one is no exception. The ’study’ was a survey of adults and teens undertaken by Marjorie Gunnoe, a psychologist at a Christian college in Michigan. Not only is it unpublished and has not undergone peer review, but her work has been rejected by two professional journals. Gunnoe’s study is in direct contradiction to previous published studies that have found that spanking may have detrimental effects on behavior and mental development, makes children more aggressive and is associated with a lower IQ in children.
I don’t actually know how I feel about spanking kids. The idea of spanking my own sons makes me a little bit squeamish, but I’m not completely opposed to it in theory. I can see that it could be a quick and effective negative reinforcement for a child who is doing something dangerous. I think the risk, for me, is that it is a slippery slope. If I can justify spanking under extreme circumstances I might turn to it in anger. And if I start hitting my kids in anger, well, that’s a path I don’t want to go down.
I guess that kind of slippery slope is what worries me about the way that this study is being reported - that it may reinforce some negative parenting behavior. Gunnoe is careful to note that her study “is not a green light for parents to spank their children, but rather a red light for those groups who want corporal punishment banned.” But most people do not read beyond the headline. The headline of this particular story is that spanking is actually good for kids. It is easy to imagine that someone who is already heavy handed with their kids might take this to mean that they can carry on with the beatings or even escalate.
As is always the case with this kind of story, I reserve most of my disdain for the media who have picked up on an unpublished study by an obscure psychologist at an obscure religious college and published it as scientific gospel. I’m sure that the legion of toddlers who are getting spanked on the back of your stories will thank you, guys. Well done.
————————-
Another thing I liked about “The Boys Are Back” was the soundtrack. Heavy presence by Icelandic post-rockers Sigur Rós, but the song that stuck with me was this one from Ray LaMontagne’s “Trouble”, available from 
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by Gappy
11 Jan 2010 at 21:37
I believe that children learn by example. So if you smack your children, the message you’re sending out is that it’s o.k. to hit someone if you’re angry with them. If you want to teach children that using violence is unnacceptable then smacking is not an option in my opinion.
If you hit an adult, you can be prosecuted for assault. So why do some people still consider it o.k. (or even beneficial!) to hit a child?
Well done on a thought provoking post. It’s a good conversation for parents to have I think.
Gappy´s last blog ..Conversations At Random.
by SciFi Dad
11 Jan 2010 at 22:21
It takes more than a modicum of skill to take a post about happy endings and spanking and turn it into a parenting discussion.
Kidding aside, I personally disagree with spanking as it teaches children to solve problems with violence instead of reasoning, something that is far too prevalent in today’s world as it is.
SciFi Dad´s last blog ..Leaving Them With Someone Else
by Noble Savage
11 Jan 2010 at 22:28
I gave my daughter a smack on her leg once, in anger, and it was the worst, most awful moment I’ve experienced since becoming a parent. I vowed never to do it again and haven’t. The look of utter fear and helpless confusion on her face will be seared into my memory and consciousness forever and there is a small part of me that will never forgive myself for ever making my child cower away from me. It’s just not worth it. And as your other commenters said, it’s just reinforcing the idea that hitting is an acceptable way to deal with anger or disagreement or non-compliance. That article and the subsequent gloating from the right-wing media and child-hitting advocates made me feel sick.
Noble Savage´s last blog ..What a way to make a living
by The Unbearable Banishment
11 Jan 2010 at 23:36
I have daughters who I would, of course, never lay a hand on. I’m afraid of the whole spanking thing. What if it doesn’t work? Spank him harder? Then you’d feel COMPLETELY powerless.
by Cat
11 Jan 2010 at 23:53
I love when I hear parents say, “If you hit your sister again, I’m going to spank you.” The senselessness of that statement is just mind boggling.
Cat´s last blog ..New Year’s Resolution: A Week In
by Technobabe
12 Jan 2010 at 00:27
I watched the trailer and it looks like a good movie. Maybe from the perspective of older folks like we are with children who have their own children, we will see different things in the movie. As hard as I tried to be a good mother, I screwed up many times. Big time. I guess that means I wasn’t perfect. Not then and not now.
Technobabe´s last blog ..The Known Universe
by Jacob
12 Jan 2010 at 00:55
I’ve always wondered if the studies that reported correlations between bad outcomes and spanking had more do with with cultural aspects than the spanking itself. I know the people who are more likely to spank and the least likely to realize that the person asking the question may look down on spanking and therefore modify the answer are the poorer and less educated. In other words, kids who are spanked are more likely to be violent and stupid not because they were spanked, but because they’re more likely to be the offspring of the violent and stupid.
I don’t actually spank my son. My wife does on occasion, but it makes me uncomfortable. My parents actually did spank. I never felt unloved and I’ve always been exceedingly non-violent. The one time in eighth grade that I lost my temper with a bully and punched him repeatedly in the face and then prompted walked to the office to turn myself in, I felt guilty for weeks. Of course that proves nothing. It’s just personal experience.
My mom thinks spanking doesn’t work by itself. You have to talk to the kid and explain why what they did was wrong and what they should have done instead, but that the spanking makes that talk more effective.
Hopefully, I won’t have to be tested. Right now my son looks to be the type who’s easily corrected like both of his parents. If he were one of those with a more stubborn streak or tendency toward doing bad things, it’d be harder for me, I think.
Jacob´s last blog ..Let’s Talk About the Weather
by Nichole
12 Jan 2010 at 01:59
I tossed spankings out of our discipline options after P decided she would make herself responsible for disciplining her little brother. With a smack to the head. I think the spankings may have been sending the wrong message. As for learning to read, we’ve been using the “BOB” books by Bobby Lynn Maslen in our “formal” efforts. Other than that, we just do and have always done a lot of reading together.
Nichole´s last blog ..And these are a few of my favorite things
by headbang8
12 Jan 2010 at 02:01
Beating your children turns makes them more likely to be violent abusers or violent criminals, a well-established, peer-reviewed fact. So repeated spanking doesn’t create, at least, a schoolyard bully who thinks force solves every problem? Hmmm…
Golden rule: If you did it to an adult, would it be common assault?
A bit of a hot button for me.
headbang8´s last blog ..What idiot declared war on Christmas?
by Mongoliangirl
12 Jan 2010 at 02:31
Hitting is hitting by any other name, IMO.
Mongoliangirl´s last blog ..Legal
by Jamie
12 Jan 2010 at 04:43
Wait, to all those who say that if you hit an adult it would be assault, so you cannot do that to a child…have you ever taken your screaming toddler out of a store/restaurant/house against their will (what’s that? you say you haven’t? well, I say you are a liar)…well if you did that to an adult – removing them from a location against their will – that is kidnapping and a felony.
I guess I should immediately state that I do not and have not spanked my child. But I am not sure this is a good thing. I think it might reflect my own squeamishness rather than enlightened parenting. Certainly, anyone who thinks that children should be treated like adults either does not have children or has incredibly spoiled children. Children are not adults – mainly because they have very limited abilities to reason (or much empathy as toddlers). Is spanking the best way to correct behavior? Probably not and too much certainly is both brutal and quickly ineffective. But are other approaches favored by American parents better – the mealy-mouthed reasoning over tantrums, the silly time outs, the bribes, or the simple say “yes” to everything and ignore bad behavior no matter how obnoxious–any better? I certainly don’t have any solutions, but I am sure that no one solution –including never spanking–is always right for every parent and every child. And to those of you so sure your “enlightened” methods used by most Americans leads to happier, better adjusted children – I would say the massive increase in prescribed medications to combat childhood depression and ADD would suggest that is not really the case (not even counting my own subjective evaluation that most middle-class American children tend to be insufferably ill-behaved and bratty).
by April
12 Jan 2010 at 06:02
Our little one is too young to be “disciplined” but I’ve been reading a lot about these things, and the consensus seems to be that by spanking your kids you teach them they can use violence to get the outcome the want, especially if they’re bigger and stronger. Also, kids don’t learn the lessons we think they will from our discipline. As parents we discipline a child with the assumption they will think about their behavior and change it, what studies have found however is that’s not what kids think, they think how unfair their parents were or of how to do it next time and not get caught. I can remember vividly each of the times I was spanked as a child (it was less than a handful) and to this day I would swear my parents were wrong and misunderstood the situation even though we’ve discussed the incidents now that I’m an adult. I may remember wrong, but it shows me just how a child’s thinking is not equivalent to the messages parents want to send.
April´s last blog ..Wordless Wednesday: Flowers with Bokeh
by alice
12 Jan 2010 at 06:19
I smacked my kid in the hand once when she wouldn’t stop trying to stick her finger in an outlet when she was a toddler. It got her attention and she found something else to do. I smacked her once in anger (on the backside) when she was a little older and it just made me feel awful and her even more defiant.
And it made me remember the one time my mother ever hit me (a slap across the face) and how being hit made ME feel even more defiant.
Like mother, like daughter? Or is that the way most kids respond to being struck? I never did it again. I can’t imagine what hitting my kid could possibly accomplish, but then again, I had a pretty good kid. If she had been a hellion, I don’t know what I would have done…
alice´s last blog ..Sad Saab Day
by My Name's Not Barbara
12 Jan 2010 at 07:03
I grew up with the wooden spoon. I’ve been smacked so hard on the leg that you could see a handprint. There are visuals burned into my head of my brother being smacked so hard with a ruler that it broke. My parents raised eight children in a very strict environment. We’re all college educated, have never been involved with the law outside of traffic concerns, and are all me. Will I hit my kids? Probably not. Were my parents good parents (not vicious and stupid?)? Absolutely.
I grew up with a fear of my parents, but then again, that isn’t always a bad thing. I think spanking is not an ideal form of punishment and a lot of times it’s the lazy way out. But I also don’t think it’s abusive if it is used in extreme situations where other forms of REASONING and INSTRUCTION don’t work.
My Name’s Not Barbara´s last blog ..Midday Stroll
by My Name's Not Barbara
12 Jan 2010 at 07:04
*We’re all college educated, have never been involved with the law outside of traffic concerns, and are all reasonably mentally stable :p
My Name’s Not Barbara´s last blog ..Midday Stroll
by Allie
12 Jan 2010 at 07:24
I get so nervous about studies that produce big headlines like that. I think few people really do read past the headline, and those things can certainly stick to you. Although, I suppose, if a parent makes choices regarding the health and well-being of their child based on a headline, there are probably bigger problems in the situation. Still, I do worry it might be an easy excuse.
Allie´s last blog ..Our Holiday Card
by Martin
12 Jan 2010 at 08:38
I’ve wanted to see that movie since I saw the trailer back in September.
Now you’ve put me off a little, I’m quite afraid of my own opinions of late, I don’t trust them. Even reading the comments on smacking makes me want to turn up the music here and look away.
Martin´s last blog ..Geboortekaartjes
by rassles
12 Jan 2010 at 09:14
My mom was a hand slapper. But I touched everything, and frequently broke things. Like at stores, and the homes of relatives. I really was a little shit. I had to hold everything. I’m still like that.
People don’t like taking me to museums. If I can reach it, I will fucking touch it. I’ve set off alarms before. I just…I HAVE TO TOUCH EVERYTHING.
The dad spanked me twice. Once when I threw a rock at a kid’s head at his office picnic (I was three), but he totally deserved it because he broke my sandfort on purpose when he was playing Godzilla. But I made the kid’s head bleed, and my dad wanted me to apologize and I kicked him and called him a dickhole because he didn’t take my side. The second time was after I hit my sister. And I would really hit the hell out of my sister.
But my grandparents were spankers. They really wailed. And my aunt. I’ve had friends’ parents hit me before: once I told my parents, once I hit back, and once I walked out.
Just last week I grabbed a guy by the throat.
I don’t think I turned out okay. So I’m going to go ahead and say “thou shalt not spank.”
rassles´s last blog ..I Totally Fight Back
by admin
12 Jan 2010 at 09:33
Gappy – I know what you’re saying and in general I agree with it, but the children learn by example thing should then prevent us from doing a lot of things that we probably still do. I don’t buy the assault metaphor, though. It’s obviously a different situation.
SciFi – Thanks for pointing out my unintended innuendo! Missed that completely.
NS – The right wing gloating annoyed me to, that’s why I wanted to look into it more. I was unsurprised that the study came out of an American Christian school and was even less surprised that it hadn’t been published.
TUB – Now you make a really good point. The whole putting Boy Z in his room thing is becoming less effective – he’s sorted out that he can just play in there – if we did use spanking and that stopped working, then what? That’s the best anti-spanking argument I’ve heard in fact.
Cat –
Technobabe – It is a good movie. Definitely worth seeing. You can see the place we live!
Jacob – There’s definitely a cultural/socioeconomic/political thing going on with these studies. I think the anti-spanking studies come at it with a preconceived notion as did this one. It isn’t science, nowhere near it. That’s why I get annoyed that the media reports it as truth. I’m not actually anti-spanking. I don’t buy the anti-spanking studies either. But like you, actually carrying it out makes me uncomfortable.
Nichole – I don’t think we’re actually ready for reading yet. I mean, he can’t even work out how to go to the toilet.
Headbang – Again, I don’t think the assault metaphor works. Children don’t have the same rights as adults. If you run in traffic, you’re responsible for your behavior. If my kid runs in traffic, I’m responsible for his behavior.
Mongola – What’s IMO?
Jamie – Well put. I agree with you about the medication and the mealy mouthed reasoning. We all know at some level that it isn’t working. It’s driving me crazy right now – Boy Z throughs an absolute fit if he doesn’t get everything he wants when he wants it and I feel like I’m powerless to do anything about it most of the time, other than removing him from the situation. But that doesn’t do shit. But that being said, when I want to spank him I’m too angry to do so. I think it would end badly.
by Danielle
12 Jan 2010 at 10:11
I think people are missing the point here.
You’re trying to be a good parent by not spanking your kids, when really, you should be worried that you’re depriving them of Avatar, the STAR WARS experience of this generation/century/whatever.
kinda joking, because your kids are probably too young for it. But, I saw it with my dad and brother and we really liked it, but… we’re a little geeky
Danielle´s last blog ..Avatar
by courtney
12 Jan 2010 at 12:51
I’m sure that’s one of the tough decisions parents have to make — to spank or not to spank. I like to think I wouldn’t, for the same reasons you did — too easy to turn to it in anger. Then again, my parents spanked me with a wooden spoon, and I don’t have any psychoses because of it.
courtney´s last blog ..Better Late Than Never
by Coal Miner's Granddaughter
12 Jan 2010 at 14:55
I spank as a last-resort, meaning all other methods to change my child’s behavior have failed. The spank, one whack on the back of the thigh, is an attention-getter. It’s a, “‘Scuse me! I’ve tried having dialog with you and you’ve ignored me! Now, you’ll listen.” The spank, of course, causes the tears to flow. And once the tears are gone, we talk about what happened, why they didn’t listen, what they were doing wrong to cause the spank, and how we can change behavior. Then, the whole episode ends with a hug, kiss, and I-love-yous.
And, thus far, I’ve not seen my children turn violent or have difficulties in their ability to learn. They’re really great, well-behaved kids. The key is to not lose your shit. The second you spank and keep spanking, leaving a red leg and a freaked-out kid, that’s when it’s bad.
Sorry for the rambles.
by Richard Collins
12 Jan 2010 at 17:14
Coal Miner’s Daughter
I spank as a last-resort, meaning all other methods to change my child’s behavior have failed. The spank, one whack on the back of the thigh, is an attention-getter.
+++++
Parents think that spanking is effective, but it is an illusion. Yes a child will stop whatever behavior got their parents attention, but as soon as the parents attention is elsewhere, they are most apt to repeat whatever “earned” them the slap. Careful observations have shown that the recidivism rate is extremely high, around 70%.
This failure to observe true outcomes is because most people are not trained as scientists and lack the patience and rigor of trained scientists. For this reason parents should pay attention to the studies and not rely on their casual untrained observations.
The downside is that children do not internalize the lesson so they do not become self-disciplined. Many good parenting guides are available that can provide non-violent discipline techniques that work and do not present the real risk that physical discipline entails.
Child advocates around the world are actively promoting a successful effort to ban all forms of physical punishment, even in the home, and also a ban against any punishment that humiliates a child.
Among child care experts the debate is settled. Gunnoe is a religious apologist and not a respected scientist in the field. If we want to raise peaceful happy children and have peaceful societies we have to end all forms of familial violence.
A reliable source of accurate information is the Parents and Teachers Against Violence web site:
http://www.nospank.net
Web pages with material on corporal punishment
http://www.stophitting.org
http://www.unh.edu/frl/cbb.htm (family Violence research)
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Richard Collins´s last blog ..Finally, some clarity on the Mexican immigration issue
by Reluctant Blogger
12 Jan 2010 at 18:57
Well, I nearly spanked my laptop. I wrote a long comment here last night, pushed “submit comment” and it disappeared. I was so cross I couldn’t face writing it again.
I kind of agree and disagree with most of your commenters. I definitely do not think smacking should be encouraged and think the article and headline are typical press rubbish. However, I have four children (aged between 7 and 21) and I did smack two of them occasionally as toddlers. Toddlers are not the same as adults – they can’t speak for one think and they do not understand danger. Obviously the best approach is to try to prevent situations occuring where they may get all wild and thrashing and put themselves or others in danger but that’s not always possible. Toddlers (some of them) can be very unpredictable and very strong.
I have never smacked a child with whom I can reason and explain. However, I do think children need to understand right from the beginning that their actions have consequences for themselves and others and that they can seriously affect the way others feel. I think it is important that they see if they have made you angry or upset. They need to know that everyone is different and reacts in a different way. I don’t mean they need to see you go wild and hit out, but they need to see you are angry/upset and understand why. Only then can they also learn how to control their own tempers and to modify their behaviour and be aware of the way they behave affects others.
It’s interesting though, that I think perhaps many people (myself included) see it as more inappropriate and worrying if a man smacks his children than if the mother does. It had never occurred to me before but I am pretty certain that my children’s father never smacked them and certainly my (female) partner never has.
Last year when I was in W.Australia a friend of mine smacked my 7 year old son. I was rather shocked but I didn’t react back. It was his right to do so. My son was clapping his hands in front of the face of my friend’s elderly dog and he thought the dog might bite him. I felt a bit cross but my son was fine about it, had it explained and often quotes the incident back to me as something quite meaningful (not frightening or violent). He will always remember it and I am pretty certain never do such a thing again. My friend should really have slapped me of course because it was my fault for not watching my son properly!!
If I lose this comment I will flush my laptop down the loo!
Great post.
by Jill/Twipply Skwood
12 Jan 2010 at 23:03
I’m really glad you looked into that, because I know how meticulous your were in the food thing & I feel better knowing you’ve said it’s not true.
I never spanked my kids, but honest to goodness there are times when my teenager back talks me that I wonder if I should have. I think I did right by them by not doing it, but every now and then…
Really though, there’s just so much we don’t know about humans and parenting. I think really if you just bumble through the best you can, making some but not all of the same mistakes your own parents made and some new, fresh mistakes of your own, you must be doing fine.
I mean, you’re thinking about parenting and attempting to do it well, which is already way more than generations and generations of parents have done.
And even if you could do every single thing “right” or “perfectly” well then you’d only run the risk of raising a child that didn’t know how to cope with adversity. Now…if only I can be consoled by my own words…
by Carolyn Online
13 Jan 2010 at 00:13
So what’s your take on locking them in the closet? Oh relax, I’m kidding. Our closet doesn’t even have a lock.
by Richard Collins
13 Jan 2010 at 00:54
I read your blog post and the comments people posted with great interest because this is a subject I have spent many weeks researching and talking to parents about. I have to say that I found your post and many of the comments people volunteered to be enlightened, because there is so much folklore and bad information about this in the general zeitgeist.
I wrote a long reply to coal miners granddaughter but I fear all was for naught because it does not show up here this morning. It may be because there were several URLs I wanted to share and many of these blog applications block urls as an anti-spam measure.
Before I go to the work of making the text acceptable to the application I thought I would inquire if that was the problem.
By the way, my net handle Librehombre was chosen to express my devotion to personal freedom, and I also lived and worked in Australia (Woomera) and am now an expat in Mexico. We seem to have much in common. My Twitter name is Librehombre.
by Jacob
13 Jan 2010 at 01:24
My Name’s Not Barbara, just in case the “viscous and stupid” comment was because of what I wrote, I wasn’t actually implying that people who spank were viscous and stupid. My parents are both educated or violent. My comment was a tongue-in-cheek reference to that fact that those with lower socio-economic status are both more likely to spank and less likely to think they should pretend otherwise. In other words, I think the other studies may possibly be more sound, but don’t actually show causality any more than the fact that ice cream sales correlate with murder rates. It doesn’t make sense that ice cream creates violence, but they correlate because of other factors that connect them.
But like I said, I’m on the fence on the issue myself.
Jacob´s last blog ..Let’s Talk About the Weather
by VE
13 Jan 2010 at 05:09
I felt the same way watching Avatar…”Man…I’ve been there…”
VE´s last blog ..Business and Pleasure
by Mongoliangirl
13 Jan 2010 at 05:41
In my opinion.
Mongoliangirl´s last blog ..Legal
by My Name's Not Barbara
13 Jan 2010 at 05:55
Jacob, What I was trying to say was that even though my parents were more violent and less educated than my peers, that didn’t mean they were bad parents, or worse than my friends’ parents. I think a lot of people who have experienced spanking or physical punishment growing up may not do the same thing with their children, but for the most part people may not want to admit it’s completely wrong because they don’t want to say that their parents are wrong or ’stupid.’ I may very well be an example of this. Parenting differs not only from family to family but from sibling to sibling. Spanking is very different from the Wooden Spoon Effect and I personally don’t see spanking as that terrible, as long as it is used as an extreme last resort or for very bad behavior.
My Name’s Not Barbara´s last blog ..Midday Stroll
by Nathan B.
13 Jan 2010 at 06:48
AFM, I share your fear of spanking being part of an expression of anger. I’ve found that the times when I want to spank as part of discipline are when I’m upset. When I calm down, I usually think of more creative ways to “solve” the problem…
by Ginny
13 Jan 2010 at 10:24
When The Boy was a baby, I couldn’t imagine I’d ever spank. And then I did. And it didn’t work. And I just kind of hated myself. Maybe there are kids out there that it works for?
(Plus, stop fragging worrying. You’re doing fine. I haven’t heard about you on the news, so you must be doing OK
)
by PDeverit
13 Jan 2010 at 10:31
Spirit of the law or letter of the law?: The vast majority of professionals agree that child bottom-battering/slapping isn’t healthy. A marginal few (mostly religious fundamentalists as those at Calvin) think that child bottom-slapping is good.
“The much-touted ‘biblical argument’ in support of corporal punishment is founded upon proof-texting a few isolated passages from Proverbs. Using the same method of selective scripture reading, one could also cite the Bible as an authority for the practice of slavery, adultery, polygamy, incest, suppression of women, executing people who eat pork, and infanticide. The brutal and vindictive practice of corporal punishment cannot be reconciled with the major New Testament themes that teach love and forgiveness and a respect for the sacredness and dignity of children, and which overwhelmingly reject violence and retribution as a means of solving human problems. Would Jesus ever hit a child? NEVER!”
The Rev. Thomas E. Sagendorf, United Methodist Clergy (Retired), Hamilton, Indiana. Personal communication, 2006.
by PDeverit
13 Jan 2010 at 10:31
People used to think it was necessary to “spank” adult members of the community, military trainees, and prisoners. In some countries they still do. In our country, it is considered sexual assault if a person over the age of 18 is “spanked”, but only if over the age of 18.
For one thing, buttock-battering can vibrate the pudendal nerve, which can lead to sexual arousal in some people. There are numerous other physiological ways in which it can be sexually abusive, but I won’t list them all here. One can use the resources I’ve posted if they want to learn more.
Child bottom-battering/slapping vs. DISCIPLINE:
Child bottom-battering (euphemistically labeled “spanking”,”swatting”,”switching”,”smacking”, “paddling”,or other cute-sounding names) for the purpose of gaining compliance is nothing more than an inherited bad habit.
Its a good idea for people to take a look at what they are doing, and learn how to DISCIPLINE instead of hit.
I think the reason why television shows like “Supernanny” and “Dr. Phil” are so popular is because that is precisely what many (not all) people are trying to do.
There are several reasons why child bottom-slapping isn’t a good idea. Here are some good, quick reads recommended by professionals:
Plain Talk About Spanking
by Jordan Riak,
The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children
by Tom Johnson,
NO VITAL ORGANS THERE, So They Say
by Lesli Taylor M.D. and Adah Maurer Ph.D.
Most compelling of all reasons to abandon this worst of all bad habits is the fact that buttock-battering can be unintentional sexual abuse for some children. There is an abundance of educational resources, testimony, documentation, etc available on the subject that can easily be found by doing a little research with the recommended reads-visit the website of Parents and Teachers Against Violence In Education at http://www.nospank.net.
Just a handful of those helping to raise awareness of why child bottom-slapping isn’t a good idea:
American Academy of Pediatrics,
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry,
American Psychological Association,
Center For Effective Discipline,
Churches’ Network For Non-Violence,
Nobel Peace Prize recipient Archbishop Desmond Tutu,
Parenting In Jesus’ Footsteps,
Global Initiative To End All Corporal Punishment of Children,
United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.
In 26 countries, child corporal punishment is prohibited by law (with more in process). In fact, the US was the only UN member that did not ratify the Convention on the Rights of the Child.
by admin
13 Jan 2010 at 12:20
April – Kids that are our kids age don’t operate on reason, so I think you’re right – heavy handed discipline isn’t going to have the desired effect. When they’re a bit older, I don’t know.
Alice – Good points, if you’re wired for defiance (as I fear my older boy is) does corporal punishment just make you more defiant?
Not Barbara – My grandmother used to threaten us with a wooden spoon, but I have no recollection as to whether or not she ever used it. As for fearing your parents, I agree. A bit of healthy fear is a good thing, otherwise too many boundaries break down.
Allie – There’s at least one of those headlines every single day. Yesterday’s was “TV causes heart disease”. If you read the story what you’ll actually find is that sitting on your ass eating pork and potato chips causes heart disease.
Martin – You should definitely still see the film. It’s very good. It has nothing to do with spanking.
Rassles – I have the same kind of hands!
Danielle – I actually wouldn’t mind seeing avatar, just to see what the 3D is like. But I don’t want to sit through 3 hours of it.
Courtney – When I was in school in Florida they still used corporal punishment and to be honest, the fear of getting ‘licks’ or ‘paddled’ by some redneck assistant dean was enough to keep me out of too much trouble. I don’t know what that means, is it an effective deterrent?
by heather
13 Jan 2010 at 14:59
We have spanked on 5 occasions over the last 13 years. Almost all was a fight flight reaction to running on the street.
Not proud, but, not worried about emotional scarring.
heather´s last blog ..Valley Winter Song
by Seattledad (Luke, I am Your Father)
13 Jan 2010 at 15:05
I am with Scifi dad, we don’t want to teach Lukas to solve problems with violence.
by barbara
13 Jan 2010 at 16:45
Off the subject a bit, the comment you gave about the study not being published because it came from a “right wing christian group”
i have been thinking a lot about censorship lately and surely all things should be published and it is for the reader to make up their minds about what they are reading. I have been seeing more and more censorship creeping into society and i don’t know what to think about it, it has got me arguing with myself. LoL
by admin
13 Jan 2010 at 22:42
Barbara – It wasn’t rejected for publication because it came from a right wing Christian group, it was probably rejected due to problems with methodology or interpretation. I didn’t say anything about right wing christians, that was a commentator. Calvin College is reasonably liberal as Christian college’s go. George Bush got booed there when he was invited as a speaker.
by Jud
14 Jan 2010 at 01:25
I was spanked on the rae occasion, and I have spanked my Little One. As she has grown and I honestly can’t think of the last time I spanked her.
I guess whatever works.
Jud´s last blog ..Life Lessons
by arizaphale
14 Jan 2010 at 12:04
The BA(aged 4): (to her Grandfather) Grandad, did you ever hit mummy when she was little?
Grandad: (uncomfortably)…er yes….
The BA: What did you hit her with?
Grandad: (even more uncomfortable)…well, it might have been a belt..
The BA: (with some measure of one-up-manship) MY mummy hit me with a SWORD!!!!!!
For the record…it was a plastic sword. And I only had to do it once. As they say in some dieting circles: It’s what you do MOST of the time that counts.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I did so want to leave it there, as a glib comment, but I can’t.
I feel the Coal Miner’s Daughter has summed it up well. A quick smack on the leg to ‘get attention’, to jerk a kid into awareness, is the most effective use of smacking and of course this becomes less necessary the older and more sentient they become. Basically, once a kid can say to you ‘THAT didn’t hurt’, smacking has outlived its usefulness. It is simply a tool in the disciplinary toolbox and like any tool, it has a pretty specific purpose, is not useful in all situations and becomes blunt with over-use.
Mr Richard Collins said this:
“Parents think that spanking is effective, but it is an illusion. Yes a child will stop whatever behavior got their parents attention, but as soon as the parents attention is elsewhere, they are most apt to repeat whatever “earned” them the slap. Careful observations have shown that the recidivism rate is extremely high, around 70%.
This failure to observe true outcomes is because most people are not trained as scientists and lack the patience and rigor of trained scientists. For this reason parents should pay attention to the studies and not rely on their casual untrained observations.”
This gets up my nose on a number of levels. Firstly, it assumes that all parents use smacking as a conditioning behaviour rather than a boundary marker. Secondly, ‘lack the patience and rigor of trained scientists’??? Listen mate, my kid just climbed up the fucking china cabinet for the fourth time! You bet your fucking ass I ain’t got any patience and rigor left!!!! Thirdly, as any good educator will tell you, the EXPERT on any child is its parent (with obvious outlier exceptions) although what they sometimes need help with is interpreting and responding to their FAR from CASUAL observations!!!
The rearing of children is an organic process. It involves both the child and the parent, their respective personalities and the healthy distribution of control, which should rest, for the most part, with the parent to begin with. If parents can recognise their own feelings and rely on these as a guide to the effectiveness of their strategies, they are most of the way there. Did that form of discipline sit well with you? Are you able to resume a good relationship with your child when the incident is over? Do you get a sense of healthy control, vengeful victory or frustration and powerlessness from your efforts to guide your child through their stages of development?
Parents KNOW when something is or isn’t working. If it isn’t,
read studies by all means but do NOT discount your own contribution to the equation. Try different approaches and learn from your mistakes. We all make ‘em. What you teach your kids, by your behaviour, is how to respond appropriately to those mistakes.
Oh, and I threw the plastic sword out and we all lived happily ever after…
arizaphale´s last blog ..The Post Where I Catch Up On Everything…..
by Margaret
14 Jan 2010 at 17:18
Just because I was spanked as a kid and came out OK doesn’t mean every kid should be spanked under every situation. My sister’s kind of screwed up, although I don’t think it’s from the spanking. I think spanking has its place, though. Like how blowing up terrorists has its place (instead of trying to negotiate with them). There are certain people that require certain types of punishment/discipline/whatever. It’s different for each kid. And each parent should have the non-abusive right to properly discipline their child. Then again, don’t listen to me. I don’t even have kids.
Margaret´s last blog ..Goat Thing of the Day: Vogue
by Richard Collins
15 Jan 2010 at 13:23
arizaphale,
Is displaying a bit of anger, but let me assure you no insult to parents was meant. I was making the point that human observations are notoriously unreliable. So much so, that some courts are beginning to refuse to admit eye witness testimony, and genetic tests are freeing dozens of prisoners in the US that were convicted on eye witness account alone. The literature is unequivocal. Our minds are rife with veritable booby traps for the unwary.
The beauty of science as a method of discovering truth is that there are so many checks and balances to ward off error. Research is peer reviewed by other experts and these people are not “friends” of the scientist they review. They are picked at random. They would like nothing better than to pick holes in the work because scientists are rewarded by finding errors in this system. Anyone who can convincingly prove mistakes were made in the design, the conduct or the data and how it was analyzed scores points. And to begin with, a scientist has to have a respectable track record to even get the funding they need to do a research project. They have to convince the people who give out grants that their work will be valuable.
Therefore, if you read a paper that documents that hitting a small child is ineffective and that there is a 70% recidivism rate you should trust that research over your own unscientific, casual observations.
Unless you know as much about the topic as an expert, it seems really foolhardy to criticize intelligent people who devote their waking moments trying to find solutions to vexing problems. It just makes a joke out of human knowledge that was won at great cost. And, is subject to change of course. But such change happens in a rigorous framework that acknowledges all our human weaknesses for self deception and bias. It is a beautifully worked out system.
Richard Collins´s last blog ..Finally, some clarity on the Mexican immigration issue
by Agnes
15 Jan 2010 at 22:27
I was smacked on occasion as a kid and I turned out ok. I’m intelligent and law abiding and have grown up to be fairly well rounded individual!
I’m not advocating smacking and I don’t have any children so I’m not commenting as a parent, but for those of you who have on occasion smacked your children, chances are your kids will survive the experience without any lasting damage.
There’s definitely a huge difference between a quick attention grabbing smack and a beating though, and I think some people confuse the two at times.
Agnes´s last blog ..Coverage of the nasal persuasion
by Frankie
16 Jan 2010 at 06:25
I was spanked by both parents as a child (which wasn’t so long ago — I’m only 22 now) as a means to get my attention when I was acting out, etc. However, my father was a violent alcoholic and, frequently, disciplinary spanking would rapidly escalate to legitimate, aggressive, anger-based abuse. Your “slippery slope” worry is a valid one. Fortunately, I turned out alright. Aside from an occasionally prickly demeanour and several unsavoury memories I am a friendly, non-aggressive biology graduate student, but I would never, EVER use anecdotal “I turned out okay” evidence to justify any form of physical discipline. I concede that there is a difference between a purely disciplinary spank and a violent attack, but if I have children I intend to break any “cycle” of abuse that exists and refrain from all physical discipline, period. I admire and applaud your reservations and arguments against spanking; your sons are extremely lucky.
by Richard Collins
17 Jan 2010 at 10:54
Agnes writes:
There’s definitely a huge difference between a quick attention grabbing smack and a beating though, and I think some people confuse the two at times.
++++++
Is it simply a matter of confusion or the fact that once parents think it is OK to hit a child they inevitably wind up in a situation where they discover a “light tap” has absolutely no effect. Accordingly, they escalate to more force and when that also proves ineffective they lose self control, go overboard and cause serious injury. Case files prove that parents do not set out to harm their children, they simply do not understand the slippery slope they have embarked upon.
This is only one reason why child advocates insist on a total ban. The other reason of course is that hitting a child violates their dignity and is humiliating. Prussian pedagogy has no place in the 21st century as if it ever had a legitimate place. It is toxic. We must recall that until very recent times punishing children was considered the exclusive domain of the male head of household.
Why subject children to a process that has proven risks when there are so many good advice books available on disciplining techniques that do not involve violence and do not train children that violence is a parent-approved way to solve a problem with another person who is being difficult.
Richard Collins´s last blog ..Finally, some clarity on the Mexican immigration issue
by Jacqueline Wesemann
23 Jan 2010 at 16:31
Saw your blog bookmarked on Digg.
by April
02 Feb 2010 at 02:28
I just finished a book that made me think of your blog post. It’s called “Nurtureshock” by Po Bronson and Ashley Merryman. I think as a scientist you might enjoy it. They delve into a lot of research about child development, motivation, praise, sleep and spankings. What was interesting about spankings is that research has shown the effect seems to be largely cultural. Caucasian kids from cultures that frown upon spanking have negative outcomes when spanked because it seems to signal a breech in what is accepted in the culture in terms of behavior, whereas African American children and others whose cultures view spanking as a normal thing and not that big of a deal didn’t show the increased aggression seen in Caucasian kids. Something to think about.
April´s last blog ..When we have shuffled off this mortal coil…